Originally Posted By vbdad55 okay - 1. first and foremost -- if there is no immediate tie in to economic growth - the answer is no ( and it has to be shown what the tie in is) we're doing this because the economy is in crisis mode- not because rich uncle Harold died and all the vultures are at the wake looking for theirs.
Originally Posted By utahjosh >>But to claim that the plan "as-is" can't be criticized is ridiculous.<< <Good thing no one said that.> I beg to differ: SPP said: <If it's the only thing out there, and you have nothing else to offer, how can you criticize it?>
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Thanks for addressing the topic, vbdad. What are a few items you might include under that guideline?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>Well first thing I would do is take out anything that applies to social engineering.<<< As someone who is I suppose a social engineer, I ask you why not? Police programmes, education, health promotion are all key to the well being of a society, and to do it right takes a lot of people. Why not try to make America a better place?
Originally Posted By queenbee Martin Feldstein was on NPR the other day and stated he was for the education $ in the stimulus package. If anything, he would have allocated more money for education. Martin Feldstein was Reagan's chief advisor. He did express concern that many of the projects were not "shovel ready" and that would delay the money being spent. One thing seemed certain though, he felt a stimulus was the right thing to do in this situation.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "nice twist of the words - but no one else is going to call school funds prok GOP - green party or anyone else-..." But that's exactly what is happening: <a href="http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gdDrWnoMueqVFI-Uo1ClxVZur22AD966CBB02" target="_blank">http://www.google.com/hostedne...966CBB02</a> >>The bill's price tag stood at $937 billion, an enormous total that has risen in recent days with the addition of tax breaks for consumers who purchase homes or cars. One Republican-proposed document outlined proposed cuts of more than $85 billion. Most of that _$60 billion — would come from money Democrats want to send to the states to avoid budget cuts for schools as well as law enforcement and other programs. Talk of cuts in proposed education funds triggered a counterattack from advocates of school spending as well as unhappiness among Democrats.<<
Originally Posted By mawnck >>As someone who is I suppose a social engineer, I ask you why not? Police programmes, education, health promotion are all key to the well being of a society, and to do it right takes a lot of people. Why not try to make America a better place?<< (1) We can't afford to. (2) It doesn't effectively stimulus the economy. I'm all for making America a better place. But first, raise taxes to pay for it. Stop the credit madness!
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Well, given the costs will be less than the military incursions in the Middle East (with a pledge to withdraw), and tax hikes are likely to raise the hackles of the selfish right, what are the alternatives?
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "After all, the Lasagna is the only offer on the table to solve your hunger problem. Why complain about the kitty litter?" If I was as hungry as much as this country is in trouble, I wouldn't notice the litter. Anything else?
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Well, given the costs will be less than the military incursions in the Middle East (with a pledge to withdraw), and tax hikes are likely to raise the hackles of the selfish right, what are the alternatives?<< Cry in our beer. Honestly, I think we are officially, irrevocably hosed. We do not have leadership with the guts to look us in the collective eye and tell us that we can't have things we can't pay for, and sorry folks, but that includes government services - even the really really "good" ones. >>If I was as hungry as much as this country is in trouble, I wouldn't notice the litter.<< Cat litter indicates there's a cat around here somewhere. Fire up the grill!
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Thanks for addressing the topic, vbdad. What are a few items you might include under that guideline?< Infrastructure projects where workers need to be hired now - this is a win-win. To me this includes railroad improvements that could improve the on time record of both passenger and freight trains - bridge improvements before any more fall into rivers, And I know it'll never fly but any stimulus money that requires jobs - the jobs should be guaranteed US jobs - period - end of story. This also includes off shoring current positions to refill them with new hires.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <If I was as hungry as much as this country is in trouble, I wouldn't notice the litter< Ah, I see you've had the Taste of Italy platter @ Olive Garden
Originally Posted By hopemax My MIL is one of those people who is employed by "social engineering" programs. In her case it's anti-tobacco. She does presentations at schools, community centers, etc. Her entire income is discretionary. It pays for her to travel, Starbucks, feed her clothes habit and crafting. And if she is effective, she has made someone live a healthier lifestyle. Which means they are able to remain a productive employee, ie taxpayer. And not someone who due to diseased lungs left the workplace early, and is now a strain on the health care industry and potentially public assistance. Or is working but is less efficient than a non-smoking coworker Same thing for sex ed. We "can't afford it," so instead we'll be paying for women and families on public assistance. Perhaps, in a different system the theoretical woman might have become a tax payer with discretionary income. Which is what we are trying to do, with the stimulus right? More people who are tax payers with discretionary income.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>And if she is effective, she has made someone live a healthier lifestyle. Which means they are able to remain a productive employee, ie taxpayer. And not someone who due to diseased lungs left the workplace early, and is now a strain on the health care industry and potentially public assistance. ... Same thing for sex ed. We "can't afford it," so instead we'll be paying for women and families on public assistance.<< So you stop the public assistance. Not that you're going to have any choice. Here's a guy who, in 7 minutes 15 seconds, tells you what the politicians would be telling you if they didn't - oh heck, I can't finish this sentence without getting admin'd. ALL of you should take the time to watch every bit of this. It's why I'm so dead set opposed to BOTH sides, and it can't be explained any clearer than this: <a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/169781/Peter-Schiff%3A-Stimulus-Bill-Will-Lead-to-%22Unmitigated-Disaster%22" target="_blank">http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-...aster%22</a>
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo mawnck - I hope you nver find yourself in hard times. My aunt was a good woman. She went to college and paid her own way through, she became a CPA and worked for the government most of her career and she also had medical insurance. But she got sick, cardio myopathy. He insurance covered her for 3 months, then the savings, then the house, and her kids stopped eating well (which led to further problems in their adult health) so she could have treatment. She died age 44. And it was proven in a class suit, that it was the asbestos removial in her government building that caused terminal illness of many of her colleagues. Not everyone who recieves help is a bum. The reality is we nede to try to change behaviours. In the UK, there are now more over 65's than under 18's. They paid their pensions, though the value on average is 40% of what it was worth 10 years ago. What do we do? Tell them sorry, you can't have anymore services you fought and paid for? Do we stop educating our children and striving to give them a better start, and stop anti social and unhealthy behaviour? Do we tax the sandwich generation who try to support their children and their parents and are finding this time difficult? I for one refuse to live in a world that is like a Dickensian novel, and what I saw in California last year with shanty towns, huge homeless numbers and middle class people that did not seek urgent medical attention because of cost, made me feel sickened by the state of Bush's America. So how can we make it better? Do we invest in trying to engineer a better solution for our people? One that builds on community values? One that aspires to get the best results with our limited resources? Do we give people an opportunity for people to gain new skills, have an income and contribute to the economy? Or do we continue down the path of degradation so that the US becomes a 2nd world nation full of people who piss on you as far as look at you? It's time for change, and I am fully behind this one (social programmes totally included).
Originally Posted By avromark <<Infrastructure projects where workers need to be hired now - this is a win-win. To me this includes railroad improvements that could improve the on time record of both passenger and freight trains - bridge improvements before any more fall into rivers, >> Now the other thing is this would allow the US to have a train system closer to Continental Europe/Japan. I'm sure those in Aerospace would argue differently but I think it would be nice if those on holiday's could take a bullet train from say New York to Orlando. It seems it would be a bit safer as well. (Not that we'd see the return of the great railway hotels of yore) Medicare? That's socialist. Who'd do that? And FYI you may not get rich under a nationally funded system and there may be delays here and there. But overall it's a nice system to be employed under. You're comfortable and you don't deal so much with Hospital Directors to the same extent as in the stateside system. As long as you run your dept. well and within accepted guidelines In Dave of UKs argument a lot of today's "societal" problems can be blamed on today's morals. Children aren't disciplined/trained as a whole to the levels they once were. Respect is gone. I find myself guilty of that on occasion. Now I think this crisis is not just economic but as a whole on what we place emphasis on. By now my tune is old. There is a fundamental problem in Corporate Culture -> Profit (esp. short term) above all, without sustainability. Goodwill seems to be a foreign concept. Empowerment doesn't mean let the employees make a positive difference (I can fix your problem) its just business speak for lets cut your pay and give you more work. Other problems include -> (as pointed out by Dave of US #1) Rather then trying to grow other economies, we merely "steal" cheap labour for goods. The net effect is the other market (developing nation) doesn't rise as high as it could and become a first world industrialized and rounded economy as it could. The other is the current industrialized economy in effect becomes "smaller" and weaker as there is less purchasing power for "average Dave". Of course that doesn't matter so long as our Shareholders are happy. Corporate Culture - a bonus used to be a reward for hard work and a job well done. Now it's a given. Those on top don't take the risks anymore that warrant it. The top is also becoming heavier. Money thrown at bailouts is just a bandage not a solution. There needs to be a long term fundamental shift. For me Infrastructure now as pointed out -> hospitals (opening up more slots in College for professionals so we're in a better place for the aging population before they die out) -> Roadway. OK we will always fill them. Develop more of a "Web" fix the current highways and give us more sustainable byways. Make the byways highways. -> Jobs -> Ok computers take over some functions now. But just think we could get more craftsman and fix what we have now. (Lets stop Urban Decay, these empty buildings could host those who currently live in ratholes). I said craftspeople not just line-assembly construction. Jobs could be created making the fine woodworking/plastering of days gone by, but with today's state of the art building techniques and efficiency). Then we wouldn't be losing so many jobs were computers have taken over/made overly efficient. Film -> Produce more content instead of having National roll-out. Bring back a million Bozo's again. Let's look through our mirror again. Archiving -> We have so much "lost film" that needs combing through, saving. We have many old movies/TV series that need restoring (make them look better then before). So what if it's small market, it creates job (A person who contributes also feels like they accomplish something). We have Video On Demand, Fibre Optic cabling. We can make this happen. Even archiving old books. You could employ people to digitize those books/photos etc. Let's have a truly useful Internet Repository. (Like all those great Sci Fi shows seem to think we'll have in the future). I guess I went off topic. But I think this is what GOP/Dems should be striving for. Maybe I'm too "optimistic" but I believe Americans are industrious people who can make this happen. We've seen people in space, we've seen many great things in the past. Yell at me as much as you want that's just my 1.5c's worth.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<I'm sure those in Aerospace would argue differently but I think it would be nice if those on holiday's could take a bullet train from say New York to Orlando. It seems it would be a bit safer as well.>> Not only would it be safer, but it would also be more environmentally friendly. More trains would help take cars off the roads, which means less CO2 going into the atmosphere. And less planes also means less CO2 emmissions - those things take a lot of fuel. Imagine is we had electric maglev train systems traversing the country all getting their power from "green" energy sources. Talk about a great start to building a cleaner tomorrow!!
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Not everyone who receives help is a bum.<< Dave ... you're not listening. I have not said that ANYBODY is a bum. What I'm saying, and that link is saying, is that within the next 16 months, the US government is not going to be able to sell bonds anymore and the dollar is therefore going to be WORTHLESS. Germany-in-the-1920s, wheelbarrow-of-bills-buys-a-sandwich worthless. Which doesn't just mean that your aunt can't get government services. It means that an awful lot of American soldiers are going to be stranded in Iraq and Afghanistan with no supplies and no ammo and no way to get home. It means that every regulatory agency closes. It means no government services at all. That Dickensonian novel is on its way, only minus the lousy jobs. It can be stopped by halting ALL stimulus and bailouts, raising taxes, slashing services, and restoring and enforcing the regulations on banking that the last several administrations dismantled. It will be painful, but it can be done, and people who are truly in need can still have basic food, clothing, shelter and medical care provided by the government, because there will still BE a government. Unfortunately, that ain't going to happen, because the results of that will still somewhat suck and the pols are too chicken or too dumb to actually do it. Two years ago, I would have dismissed this as insane talk. But the numbers don't lie. I understand the concept of maxing out a credit card, and the United States of America may have already done it with theirs. I guess Congresspeople have never had to worry about credit cards. WATCH THE VIDEO.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>and the dollar is therefore going to be WORTHLESS<< Tell you what. If you believe that, then please send every worthless dollar you have to me. In 16 months you can laugh at what a fool I've been when those bills are nothing but worthless paper. Seriously. Put your money where my mouth is.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Tell you what. If you believe that, then please send every worthless dollar you have to me. In 16 months you can laugh at what a fool I've been when those bills are nothing but worthless paper. Seriously. Put your money where my mouth is.<< In 16 months I might just do that. If the USPS is still in existence. FWIW, I have indeed put my money where my mouth is in my investment strategy. If the economy doesn't take a dramatic downturn from here, I'm going to lose a big chunk of my life savings. So feel free to make all the fun you want in 16 months. You can't buy anything with a maxed-out credit card. Watch the video.
