Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>we both recognize a false dilemna<< I don't know what that means. >>if we see a free government in Iraq, where they have been having elections since they were called Babylon, we could see something happen here that could germinate peace and even an ideal of freedom in the Middle East that may turn the whole of humanity in a better direction<< This dusty talking point from 2002 borders on the delusional in 2007. It ignores the fact that when given the choice, Iraqis are choosing between essentially two theocracies, neither of which in line with American-style democracy.
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA ^^Right. Plus, U.S. forces are doing most of the 'heavy lifting.'
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <I don't know what that means.> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F alse_dilemma</a> <This dusty talking point from 2002 borders on the delusional in 2007.> No, it's not. <It ignores the fact that when given the choice, Iraqis are choosing between essentially two theocracies, neither of which in line with American-style democracy.> That's an opinion, not a fact.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>No, it's not.<< You may believe that somehow Iraq will be shaped into a model democracy, and neighboring coutries will be inspired by this to try and replicate it in their own countries. You may also believe that Mr. Owl will reveal the actual numbers of licks it takes to get to the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop. Neither is likely.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh Perhaps, but it might be that Iraq will be shaped into a functional democracy, and the people of neighboring coutries will be inspired enough to try and replicate it in their own countries. Of course, we'll never find out if we listen to the modern day Copperheads amongst us.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Who do you want to win, Douglas? The Sunni or the Shia?> I want both to win. The Kurds too.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan And how many Americans and Iraqi civilians need to die to see if this little experiment in pre-emptive wars works out that way? How many billions more must be spent? All in the name of protecting the Bush legacy, and the legacy of the neocons. No, thanks. They botched it every step of the way, and it will be a great reminder of what neocons have to offer -- empty rhetoric and nonsense.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I have a son who will be draft age in just 5 years. I realize there is no draft now, but there's always the possibility that could change. It makes me sick to my stomach to think of any parent losing a child in a war such as this. I don't want more and more and more bodies shipped home in support of propping up this presidency legacy of failure. It's very easy to toss of things like "modern day Copperheads" to dismiss critics of this war, especially from the comfort of one's own home. But imagine you had a loved one over there risking their life, while back here, leaders and cadidates have no real idea how best to get us out of there. It's miserable, and the public, by and large, is sick of this war, the slaughter, the pointlessness of it all.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>That's an opinion, not a fact.<< Do you believe that they are choosing secular representatives? If so, you need to update your "facts".
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <And how many Americans and Iraqi civilians need to die to see if this little experiment in pre-emptive wars works out that way?> Not one American or Iraqi needs to die. How many Americans and Iraqi will die if we give up our "little experiment"? How many Americans or Iraqis would have died anyway if we hadn't tried our "little experiment"? No one can say. But some things are worth sacrifices. <All in the name of protecting the Bush legacy, and the legacy of the neocons.> No. All in the name of making the world a little better, and a little safer. <I have a son who will be draft age in just 5 years.> So do I. <It's very easy to toss of things like "modern day Copperheads" to dismiss critics of this war, especially from the comfort of one's own home.> It's even easier to say we should just give up, and make it all worthless.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Do you believe that they are choosing secular representatives?> Some are, some are not. Works that way here, as well.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "<I have a son who will be draft age in just 5 years.> So do I." You may be willing to see yours die for this inane war, he's not.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>All in the name of making the world a little better, and a little safer.<< Well, that's one argument. But I think it's doing the opposite, building more and more resentment against us and our interests. >>Not one American or Iraqi needs to die. << But they will. And for what? >>So do I.<< Then you will understand why I desperately want this war to end. Why I don't want anymore families to suffer because of an ill-concieved mess our leaders created. (I'm not suggesting you do, by the way.) >>Some are, some are not. Works that way here, as well.<< Please. Check again. They are not building a secular government there.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>How many Americans or Iraqis would have died anyway if we hadn't tried our "little experiment"? No one can say.<< 3,000 less Americans.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Then you will understand why I desperately want this war to end.> I don't think ending this war in defeat will make our sons safer. <They are not building a secular government there.> They don't have to.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <3,000 less Americans.> You don't know that. It's possible that by overturning Saddam we prevented another 9/11.
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA <3,000 less Americans.> <You don't know that. It's possible that by overturning Saddam we prevented another 9/11.> True that. After all, 9/11 was perpetrated by Hussein.
Originally Posted By jonvn We prevented nothing by invanding. He had no WMD, and he was antagonistic towards the people who did commit 9/11. If anything, he was our natural ally in the area, as he was opposed to these religious regimes and was secular. In fact, he was our buddy, until he chose the ill-advised path of invaded a buddy of Bush I. Now, we're going to have just the opposite of what we wanted when we invaded, a theocracy with yet another population that is filled with hatred for us, and a haven for the actual people who did attack us on 9/11. That's the reality. And for that, thousands have died. Needlessly and in vain.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I don't think ending this war in defeat will make our sons safer." It's statement like this that border on sheer idiocy. We already invaded and overhrew the government. Another one hand picked by us is in place. If that government can't hack it then let the chips fall where they may. Who else do we need to beat? There are "terrorists" everywhere, so save that utter bull. We need to get the hell out.
