Originally Posted By jkayjs Yes I know it isn't till tomorrow but I'll be slaving away @ the ole ER so wanted to wish all a Happy Turkey day. Also I am a dalmations virgin so couldn't resist.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Hmmm, something about that just sounds sick. But, thank YOU for being one who is on the front lines to keep us healthy during the holidays.
Originally Posted By jkayjs <<Hmmm, something about that just sounds sick.>> Nothing sorted meant or implied. Have just never gotten to be the 101 poster before.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Johnny - you and I definately do not see eye to eye. Rather be in DL than WDW - anyday.
Originally Posted By barboy "I wasn't that impressed with Disneyland" What are you... some kind of Communist?
Originally Posted By jonnyrzone420 I didn't mean to upset the disneyland fanatics. Also, there shouldn't be any competition between the two, its all disney
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<How could that be? Epcot is perfect and wonderful...and...hey, haven't they basically ripped down half the original place at this point and rebuilt it? Gee. OH, and MGM....it's really a great place, because...oh, I guess that's going to basically look nothing like how it was originally built, either. Oh. Yes, what's going on with DCA has never been done before by Disney. Except when it has.>> Jon, no Disney park in history has been madeover like DCA is being at such a young stage in its history largely do to issues with popularity. Disney-MGM grew because it was a 1/2 day park at opening that had huge lines because it was popular. EPCOT has added and had things removed, but it certainly hasn't had a full-scale makeover or anything close to it. DCA opened as a weak 3rd gate when a strong 2nd was open. And then rather than build on the strenghth it had, management went all kneejerk. They took away some of the best things. They added all kind of 'quick fixes' that were more problems than solutions and they took a park with tremendous potential and made it a complete mess (albeit one I still feel is better than The Park About To Formerly Be Known as The Disney MGM Studios). Since you and I largely agree on the mistakes made and the things we liked about DCA, I see no reason to repeat them here for the benefit of others (sorry, got some holiday plans later!) But every park is unique with its own challenges and strengths. You simply can't compare Florida's second and third gates with Anaheim's second.
Originally Posted By jonvn "no Disney park in history has been madeover like DCA is being at such a young stage" Actually, Disneyland did. I don't know what the actual issues are with its popularity. "Disney-MGM grew because it was a 1/2 day park at opening that had huge lines because it was popular." It had huge lines because it was in the middle of WDW. It wasn't anything special. "EPCOT has added and had things removed, but it certainly hasn't had a full-scale makeover or anything close to it." Almost nothing of original Future World is left. That's half the place. "And then rather than build on the strenghth it had, management went all kneejerk" That I agree with. "But every park is unique with its own challenges and strengths." This, too. Whatever needs to be done is done. It has no metaphysical meaning beyond that other than the need for a corporation to make a buck.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 "no Disney park in history has been madeover like DCA is being at such a young stage" <<Actually, Disneyland did. I don't know what the actual issues are with its popularity. >> DL had things added. It wasn't changed in a substantial way. Main Street didn't suddenly become something totally different. They didn't remove the castle. Yes, they took things out. Mostly the temporary, schlocky things tossed into Tomorrowland at last minute. And added major things like Matterhorn, Subs, Monorail etc ... But I don't think you can compare what Walt and Co. did in the 50s and 60s to what TWDC is doing in Anaheim with DCA today. "Disney-MGM grew because it was a 1/2 day park at opening that had huge lines because it was popular." <<It had huge lines because it was in the middle of WDW. It wasn't anything special.>> That's opinion. I loved what was there at opening. Much like DCA, I felt it had a strong, cohesive story, but just needed more. And much like DCA, they made it a total jumbled mess. It is by far my least fave US Disney park now ... I enjoy going there to ride ToT and dine at the Brown Derby ... not much else. But the fact it is at WDW still doesn't mean it was assured success. People wanted more to do, which they got. At DCA, people didn't seem to want any part of it, especially locals. I understand a bit of this, but not all. But again, I enjoyed DCA 2001 a whole lot ... and Disney-MGM 1989 too! Maybe I have bad taste? (Nah, I don't think so!) "EPCOT has added and had things removed, but it certainly hasn't had a full-scale makeover or anything close to it." <<Almost nothing of original Future World is left. That's half the place. >> It all depends on how you look at it, Jon. All of the original pavilions in FW still exist. All of them. Yeah, they've been updated, some multiple times (like SSE, which is getting its fourth and largest redo in 25 years). But, at their heart, most haven't changed very much. Energy still takes you back to the age of the dinosaurs. Imagination still has a ride with a purple dragon, a 3D movie and an interactive area. Land still has a boat ride through experimental greenhouses, revolving restuarant, film about conservation. Motion is the only original pavilion that has totally been changed from Day 1 (and it still has a GM showroom at the end!) I know your point is that all Disney parks have gone through substantial changes. You're right. But none have had the kind of extreme makeover that DCA is having. It's really almost a complete 'rethinking' of the park's purpose and what it should be or what TWDC thinks it should be.
Originally Posted By jonvn "But I don't think you can compare what Walt and Co. did in the 50s and 60s to what TWDC is doing in Anaheim with DCA today." Sure I can. I just did it. "they took things out. Mostly the temporary, schlocky things tossed into Tomorrowland at last minute. And added major things like Matterhorn, Subs, Monorail etc" So how is that different? Seems the same to me. "I loved what was there at opening. " I was never so dissapointed and underwhelmed. The Great Movie Ride is bad, the tour is stupid, the whole place is junky. They put in a couple of nasty rides people like, but otherwise, it's a write off. "All of the original pavilions in FW still exist" The buildings in DL's Tomorrowland from 1955 are mostly there, too. That doesn't mean they still are the same. And while the pavilions may exist, Imagination, seas, sse, energy, are totally redone. Communicore, horizons, world of motion, wonders of life, gone, replaced, or just closed The land is about the same, but it's had extensive makeover too. "But none have had the kind of extreme makeover that DCA is having." Epcot has, MGM has, and DLP has. In fact, it's probably more extreme. DCA is getting a new entrance mall. A new land, a water show, and a new ride.Some prettying up. All about cartoons, and done over a 5 or 6 year period. That's not extreme.
Originally Posted By jonnyrzone420 spirit, what about the horizon building that was knocked down in 2002 to make way for mission space?
Originally Posted By dshyates "So how is that different? Seems the same to me." Jon they did not, I repeat, did not change the entire artistic direction of an entire land in Disneyland 7 years after opening. They simply didn't. So stop being obstinent. Main Street was never Postcard Plaza or any such nonsense.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Jon they did not, I repeat, did not change the entire artistic direction of an entire land in Disneyland 7 years after opening. They simply didn't. So stop being obstinent. Main Street was never Postcard Plaza or any such nonsense.>> Exactly. And they didn't do likewise at either the Studios or Epcot ... and absolutely not at DLP. You can talk all you want about change. But in the first example, it was all about adding things to the Studios. Not remaking the park into something different. It wasn't about 'this park isn't hitting its mark, we need to completely redo its thematic elements' ... it was 'we have way too many people here and way too few attractions, so we need to expand.' Big difference. EPCOT has had its pavilions updated. Again, that's over a quarter of a century and quite normal for a park that was supposed to change frequently and be updated (at least FW). WS has had very little changed/added/taken away. The park hasn't had SSE removed ... or its entrance through the back gate near the Seas, so they can totally create a new entrance. They haven't decided to completely change the focus of the park. And DLP ... well, I'm just going to tell you what the facts are ... the park has had very, very little change in 15 yrs. One major E-ticket added (Space Mountain) and a handful of smaller attractions (stuff like Storybookland added or Buzz Lighyear replacing Timekeeper). There's no rational way you can compare them (not that I expect it will change your opinion but ...)
Originally Posted By jonvn "Jon they did not, I repeat, did not change the entire artistic direction of an entire land in Disneyland 7 years after opening." Except for the Indian Village, which was relocated from it's original location near Adventureland over to where Critter Country now sits. Or Holidayland. When did that close? Oh, and the Circus, too, I guess. Oh, and a bunch of stuff in Frontierland, but lets not quibble. Oh, and I guess most of what is now Tomorrowland, too, with the changes from Phantom Boats, to subs, the autopias, the viewliner, the monorail, the astro orbitor, the skyway....all within 5 years of the place being opened. I'm not being obstinate. You're simply trying to say something that is not really consistent with the history of their parks. "And they didn't do likewise at either the Studios or Epcot " Nearly all of Future World is changed. Sure, you can ignore that, but that's the simple fact of the matter. "Not remaking the park into something different." The entire studio park is almost nothing like it was when it first opened. "EPCOT has had its pavilions updated. " If you call tearing them down and putting in something completely different "updated," then sure. The entrance plaza to DCA will be "updated." "that's over a quarter of a century and quite normal" Quite normal? Only because you simply want DCA to be in a separate category. No other park, including DCA, will have had so much removed and replaced. They are both theme parks. One has had nearly everything originally there removed and replaced (in a section that is at least as large as DCA, and DCA which is going to have a similar thing done to it. Or at least sections of it. And yes, WS is part of the half of the park that has not seen a lot of change, although it has had some. These are not updates. An update would be something along the lines of what has happened with American Adventure over the years. "the park has had very, very little change in 15 yrs." Stuff had to be added to the park when it was first built. But yes, since then, nothing has been done to it, far as I can recall, except add the second gate.
Originally Posted By dshyates Jon FW@EPCOT has had 1 pavilion torn down and rebuilt. Even TT which is a completely different ride is in the same building. EPCOT is probably the worst park to use to support how parks have changed. Each park has its challenges and EPCOTs biggest problem is that is hasn't changed. Both FW and WS look pretty much like they did opening day. With a few additions. LS, Morocco, Norway. But pretty much the same The Studios when it fully opened was a pretty cohesive park. Now, it is a jumbled mess, and yet it still hasn't gone through what DCA is about to go through. But we can hope.
Originally Posted By Mr X dsh and others, I'm going to go ahead and agree with Jon on the Epcot thing... It may look similar while strolling around (that seems to be a lot of peoples' major point), but FutureWorld is, indeed, utterly changed just as Jon has said. Personally, I don't think for the better. However, I'm very aware that lots of people complained about the lack of thrill rides and found the place boring (just ask Homer Simpson lol). So anyway, yeah I think Jon is somewhat on the apologist side as far as not recognizing that DCA is a more major flop than some inside and out of Disney would care to admit (even while hurling billions at the problem), but too it's fair for him to say that this is hardly unprecedented...it isn't.
Originally Posted By jonvn OK, so one building torn down with Horizons, World of Motion gutted. Communicore, gutted. Imagination, gutted. Wonders of Life, closed. Space Ship Earth, gutted. Living Seas, redone. Energy, redone. Entrance area, redone. Land, redone. That's the whole thing, if I recall. What else is there? The fountain? And really, most of these chages have NOT been for the better. The problem with Epcot, if you look at the parking lot, is that it never got as many people as they thought it would. So, they've been trying desperately, throwing billions at this thing, to build it up and make it so that it doesn't seem so stodgy. What DCA needed from the beginning was to grow what it started with. It was a good start, utterly tossed aside, and had a whole lot of really poor choices made as to what to put in next, or what to remove. Now they are continuing this process, but with a lot more money thrown at it. What they are intending on doing is not that great, it sounds like so far. But it does sound expensive. But, the actuality is that FW is a total redo. World Showcase has had updates. Oh Canada, that's been updated (with Martin Short? Great choice...) and American Adventure has been updated. I haven't seen El Rio del Tiempo yet (or whatever they call it now) so I don't know if they ripped it out and started fresh or just updated it a bit. I hope they don't change the Norway ride, it is the most unintentionally hilarious thing I've ever seen at a Disney park. Nooorrrwaaayyyyyyy!
Originally Posted By brotherdave Gran Fiesta Tour (El Rio del Tiempo's new name) wasn't gutted. Just new films with the Three Caballeros replacing the oldere films through the ride, plus the song was changed. American Adventure, only the ending film montage has changed, the rest of the attraction is almost exactly as it was opening day. Spaceship Earth is reportedly NOT being 'gutted' (most scenes will remain in place), but some of the scenes will be enhanced with a new finale and interactive cars for the ending. With the exception of Horizons being bulldozed and World of Motion's building exterior changed, the rest of the Future World structures look pretty much as they did when they were built.
