Originally Posted By jkayjs Say what you will but there is absolutely NO change in the theme of any of FW's pavillions(with the exception of WoL and it remains to be seen what it's ultimate fate will be). *TT is still about "Motion" *MS is still about what's beyond the "Horizon" *UoE well if adding an animatronic Ellen changes the theme what can anyone say *SSE is still about the wonderment of man's influence on this planet "Earth" *Innoventions is still about "Communicating" about all the marvelouse advancements in technology *LS is still "LS" *Imagination is still about well "Imagination" *The Land is still about preserving/inhancing our natural resources/"Land" Yes all of them have had additions&/or face lifts and even 1 1/2 "extreme makeovers" but as I said the themes are ALL the same. I could go on about the rest of this and other parks but have to put up my Christmas tree. Have fun with the debate.
Originally Posted By jkayjs <<about all the marvelouse advancements>> It's also about the "marvelous" advancements.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I'm not being obstinate. You're simply trying to say something that is not really consistent with the history of their parks.>> What you're trying to do, Jon, is to say that what is happening at DCA is simply nothing that hasn't happened before at every other Disney park before. And it's a fundamentally flawed argument. What DCA is undergoing (or will be) is unprecedented in Disney theme park history. "And they didn't do likewise at either the Studios or Epcot " <<Nearly all of Future World is changed. Sure, you can ignore that, but that's the simple fact of the matter.>> No, I'm not ignoring it. Since EPCOT is the park that made me a Disney fan for life, I'm very in touch with what has happened in FW. But what you're missing, or some would say choosing to miss since some believe you're contrary just for the sake of it (I am not one of them, btw, but I did feel the need to give some props to your legions of fans!), is that EPCOT has changed over a quarter of a century. It wasn't fundamentally changed at ALL in its first five years. Nothing substanitive was taken away. Horizons opened and Living Seas opened ... both scheduled as Phase II pavilions. In 1992, EPCOT didn't have its main entrance completely transformed and rethemed, didn't have all sorts of attractions pulled out with others tossed in (regardless of theme or appropriateness), its orginal icon wasn't removed etc ... You can argue till the cows come home, Al Lutz invites you to Bubba Gump's for shrimp or George Bush admits his presidency has been an utter disaster, which ever comes first ... but EPCOT's changes were never the type that DCA is undergoing. "Not remaking the park into something different." <<The entire studio park is almost nothing like it was when it first opened.>> Largely true. It's an utter mess. But the Studios is also closing in on 20 years now. It also was developed without a master plan for growth (the only park to have done so, DCA included). But if you removed the BAH, and looked down Hollywood Blvd., it would look almost 100% the way it looked in 1989. "EPCOT has had its pavilions updated. " <<If you call tearing them down and putting in something completely different "updated," then sure. The entrance plaza to DCA will be "updated.">> Jon, only WoM was gutted into Test Track out of the Opening Day pavilions. Horizons wasn't open then and, yes, it was torn down. But again, that's one attraction. Fundamentally, Energy, SSE, Seas, Land and Imagination are very much updated versions of what they were to begin with. "that's over a quarter of a century and quite normal" <<Quite normal? Only because you simply want DCA to be in a separate category.>> Because I can put things in perspective. Every park is unique with its own strengths and weaknesses. I have no agenda here, Jon. I'm nobody's minion. I enjoyed DCA in 2001. I enjoy it less now, but hope to enjoy it more in 2011. I just understand the dynamics of the DCA makeover and they are unique in the history of Disney parks. I doubt I'm telling you anything different than Bob Iger would tell you if you were at a cocktail party with the man. "No other park, including DCA, will have had so much removed and replaced. " <<They are both theme parks. One has had nearly everything originally there removed and replaced (in a section that is at least as large as DCA, and DCA which is going to have a similar thing done to it. Or at least sections of it.>> Yes. And one park is having it all done barely five years after the park debuted. EPCOT didn't start even updating its pavilions until the mid-90s. One also was themed to the future and really could't afford to be dated ... and that wasn't DCA. <<And yes, WS is part of the half of the park that has not seen a lot of change, although it has had some.>> Almost none. The very minimal updates have all happened since 2003. EPCOT was 21 years old at the time. <<These are not updates. An update would be something along the lines of what has happened with American Adventure over the years.>> I'm not going to get into a semantics debate over what 'update' means referring to how Disney changes its attractions. My opinion (and I believe a rational one) is if greater than 75% of an attraction stays the same or keeps the same basic theme and method of storytelling (like Energy) that it is an update. Test Track replacing WoM would not qualify. Retheming the sea cabs to Nemo and running them down the same track with some characters thrown in, would. "the park has had very, very little change in 15 yrs." <<Stuff had to be added to the park when it was first built. But yes, since then, nothing has been done to it, far as I can recall, except add the second gate.>> DSP has nothing to do with changes at DLP. That would be like discussing DL changes in a DCA context. I'm telling you that DLP has had very few changes made since 1992 and most of them were additions, not replacements.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<OK, so one building torn down with Horizons, World of Motion gutted. Communicore, gutted. Imagination, gutted. Wonders of Life, closed. Space Ship Earth, gutted. Living Seas, redone. Energy, redone. Entrance area, redone. Land, redone. That's the whole thing, if I recall. What else is there? The fountain? >> Communicore, which became Innoventions, was always supposed to change. And these were and are minor attractions. I'd bet a vast majority of guests don't spend more than 15 minutes in all of Innoventions before heading for 'the rides.' Imagination wasn't really gutted (even though I think they've wasted a tremendous amount of money twice to create an attraction not nearly as good, or as popular, as the original). The basic ride thru remained, the 3D movie remained, the Image Works remained (albeit moved downstairs). If you're going to just mindlessly list things that have been updated over the years to somehow prove that EPCOT and DCA are in the same category, I'm just going to say you're making an apples tp pineapples comparison ... maybe you have an agenda ... to prove that DCA has been a huge success and your pal Al Lutz is clueless? <<And really, most of these chages have NOT been for the better. The problem with Epcot, if you look at the parking lot, is that it never got as many people as they thought it would. So, they've been trying desperately, throwing billions at this thing, to build it up and make it so that it doesn't seem so stodgy.>> WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. Now, you toss out this idea that EPCOT has somehow been a failure by Disney metrics and they've 'deperately' tossed billions into it to attract people, so it's just like DCA ... no, it's worse because they spent more on it, right? C'mon, Jon. You can't have your cake and eat your cookies too. You hate it when people here state that DCA hasn't produced the kind of attendance Disney wanted/expected, but now you propose that EPCOT, which has always been one of the world's Top 3-4 most visited parks for a quarter of a century is actually not pulling in the numbers Disney wants??!? That seems very hypocritcal to me (and likely others) and I can tell you as someone who has stal...I mean someone who has known his share of Disney execs, industry people and consultants and has a wee bit of inside information that Disney would be thrilled if DCA were in as dire a need for bodies as EPCOT is ;-) <<What DCA needed from the beginning was to grow what it started with. It was a good start, utterly tossed aside, and had a whole lot of really poor choices made as to what to put in next, or what to remove. >> I basically agree with this. I've said management made some incredibly stupid and kneejerk reactions at TDA. But I am also realistic to understand that when Eisner, Pressler and Co. decided to throw away everything the WDC learned about building and operating Disney parks when DCA was conceived of, they set themselves up for a true disaster. That DCA is as enjoyable as it is, is in large mesaure due to some of the people who worked on it because it really should have been a complete, utter and total disaster instead of a halfway decent theme park and fun place to spend a day. <<Now they are continuing this process, but with a lot more money thrown at it. What they are intending on doing is not that great, it sounds like so far. But it does sound expensive.>> Jon, you're jumping to conclusions based on very little information. Disney has released a tiny amount of what is planned (and much of it sounds good to me, if a bit too character-based). ... Unless you're believing everything Al Lutz is writing, which really wouldn't be the smartest thing to do (although he is quite right about the nuts who dump ashes at DL, regardless of what lies Disney's publicists tell). <<But, the actuality is that FW is a total redo.>> No. It isn't. But a large part has been redone ... OVER A TWENTY FIVE YEAR PERIOD. Please compare with DCA. <<World Showcase has had updates. Oh Canada, that's been updated (with Martin Short? Great choice...) and American Adventure has been updated. I haven't seen El Rio del Tiempo yet (or whatever they call it now) so I don't know if they ripped it out and started fresh or just updated it a bit.>> Canada is a joke, but a good 80% of the footage is from the old movie. I'd call that an update. AA has had 90 seconds of new footage in the finale montage edited into a 35-minute show ... I wouldn't even call that an update. El Rio Del Tiempo has been overlayed with the Three Cabelleros, but almost every set and scene is still the same. <<I hope they don't change the Norway ride, it is the most unintentionally hilarious thing I've ever seen at a Disney park. Nooorrrwaaayyyyyyy!>> No changes here. But a new film is on the way.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>TDLFAN, I think we're gonna be friends.<< That's a priviledge you have to earn, so start being nice to me too.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Say what you will but there is absolutely NO change in the theme of any of FW's pavillions" This is starting to get funny. the entire place has been completely made over, yet people are trying to insist that it has not. "What DCA is undergoing (or will be) is unprecedented in Disney theme park history." You keep saying this, and yet, it's not true, and I've pointed out why it's not true. "is that EPCOT has changed over a quarter of a century." And DCA will be chaning over the course of a decade or more. So? What other park has had half of it been removed/replaced? "In 1992, EPCOT didn't have its main entrance completely transformed and rethemed, didn't have all sorts of attractions pulled out with others tossed in (regardless of theme or appropriateness), its orginal icon wasn't removed etc ..." But it has now. Half the park is basially a redo. "If you're going to just mindlessly list things that have been updated " These aren't updates, they are rebuilds, in some cases complete tear down and rebuilds. The pavilions are not small things. These things are absolutely huge, and a lot of money has been spent in making Epcot more accessible. "EPCOT's changes were never the type that DCA is undergoing." Actually, they are pretty similar in that they have been slowly trying to move away from the boring edutainment label to things that are more exciting and theme park like fun stuff. It's a definite change in direction. "And one park is having it all done barely five years after the park debuted." Actually, it's nearly 7 years, and they will not have completed these few changes they've announced for another 5. "I have no agenda here, Jon. I'm nobody's minion. " No one has said anyone has an agenda. We simply don't agree on this. "I doubt I'm telling you anything different than Bob Iger would tell you if you were at a cocktail party with the man." If I were at a cocktail party with him, he'd probably be telling me to leave. "Communicore, which became Innoventions, was always supposed to change." Yes, it changed into something completely different. "Imagination wasn't really gutted " Other than the name, it's really not the same experience at all. "you toss out this idea that EPCOT has somehow been a failure by Disney metrics " I didn't say that. "but now you propose that EPCOT, which has always been one of the world's Top 3-4 most visited parks for a quarter of a century is actually not pulling in the numbers Disney wants??!?" I have no idea what they want. I do think that if you look at the size of the parking lot, they may have expected more people than what they got. Everything is relative to expectations. "when Eisner, Pressler and Co. decided to throw away everything the WDC learned about building and operating Disney parks when DCA was conceived of, they set themselves up for a true disaster." And the new changes reflect them throwing away yet other ideas and lessons learned. They are just throwing away a different set of rules than the first group did. "Disney has released a tiny amount of what is planned" I am only going by what they have announced so far. I base my statements on that alone. If they change or add to what they announce, I'll modify my opinion. As of now, it does not look all that great. I couldn't care less what Al says about anything, he's totally unreliable.
Originally Posted By dshyates Jon, At EPCOT they have over 25 years changed out one attration at a time. It wasn't in any way a massive redo that changed the entire artistic direction resulting in flattening the turnstiles, SSE and evrything in btween. They updated the attractions, not changed the artistic direction of any "main streen" section of any Disney park unless you want to count adding A BUH a massive artistic retooling.
Originally Posted By dshyates To be more concise, here is why the EPCOT analogy fails. In theme park development there is a thematic ladder. Park Theme Area Theme Attraction Theme Attraction Demonstrative Concept At epcot you have to go all the way down to Attraction Demonstrative Concept level to see the changes. At DCA for the entrance area you start at area theme that changes everything below that. And what people are saying is unprecedented is that in the history of Disney theme parks there has never been a retooling of the grand entrance all the way to and including the hub icon, that start at the area theme level. There just hasn't. You mental gymnastics are as entertaining as a good cirque show, but that doesn't change the fact that this is unprecedented. "And the new changes reflect them throwing away yet other ideas and lessons learned. They are just throwing away a different set of rules than the first group did." On this I agree. In Walt's day they followed the ladder all the way down, no exceptions. The new guys also jump off but for the most part further down. Except with Carsland where they jump off to a new ladder by moving movie tie in from attraction theme level to area theme level. They sort of did this with RR/TooTown. But I think this still is farther in a direction away from traditional Disney theme park development. But after they jump to the new ladder at area theme level they seem to be going to great pains to follow the Disney model from there to the bottom. We will have to see how that works. LM is questionable at both park theme (California) and Area Theme (Seaside Pier) but her presence is all over the pier now anyway. Toons in Tomorrowland. In Walt's day the only way there would have been toons in TL would have been if in the future there was a chance of bringing ink drawings to life. To be honest they have been breaking the rules since EPCOT Center with varing degrees of success. But even for the casual fans like us it does seem odd that they don't seem to learn from the mistakes of their predicessors. I think thats where ego comes in. I think its been proven that if they simply follow the ladder to the bottom regardless of the theme people will like it.
Originally Posted By jonvn "At EPCOT they have over 25 years changed out one attration at a time. " And that is what they are adding to DCA, one thing at a time. That is why it is going to take at least 5 years from now before what has been announced will be finished. "To be more concise, here is why the EPCOT analogy fails." What it comes down to is that the place has been completely ripped and rebuilt. Nothing in DCA is even getting something like that. The Hollywood area is still going to be the Hollywood area, the pier will be the pier, the airfield will still be the airfield. There will be a new land. And the entrance is being changed. That's the extent of it as of now. I think you guys are overstating what is happening to DCA, and understating what has happened at other parks. My guess is you'll say I'm doing the reverse. "But after they jump to the new ladder at area theme level they seem to be going to great pains to follow the Disney model from there to the bottom." Your ladder is an interesting concept. But basically what Disney is now doing with their "theming" is treating it as area decor. "This area is decorated to look like a pier. This area is decorated to look like an airfield." That is now the extent of it. The content does not match the area theme, and so it no longer is a theme, just very fancy decoration. "it does seem odd that they don't seem to learn from the mistakes of their predicessors. I think thats where ego comes in" This whole DCA change smacks more of ego than anything else to me. I can understand wanting to modify the rules as time goes on, but the manner in which they are now doing it smacks of them not understanding them at all. I don't know if that is a problem at WDI, or some other area in the company dictating to them. But it is plain that you have a marketing driven product here now as opposed to one that built its reputation on innovation. It results in a very obvious reduction in they quality of their offerings. But, as long as people keep streaming in and giving them the equivalent of a month's worth of their trailer payments, there is not much reason for them to bother doing anything else.
Originally Posted By dshyates "This whole DCA change smacks more of ego than anything else to me." I would agree if DCA weren't a "struggling" park.
Originally Posted By jonvn I don't know how much it is or isn't struggling, because I am not privvy to the details. What I do see, however, are the plans for the upcoming changes, and while they are not poorly implemented in the manner the first construction was done, they are poorly designed in yet an entirely different way. The first construction was beset by a real fear on the part of the company to overspend. SO they did not. But what they did was actually rather nice, for what it was. It needed to be built upon. Instead they just threw it away, because they no longer understand what is or is not any good. Now they are further going in that direction, with just a ton of money. Other than the new entrance, which will make for a nicer entrance mall, none of the changes sound the least bit compelling. Cartoon based rides are not it, and I don't think anything they add to the the park at this point of this nature is going to do the place much good at all.
Originally Posted By jkayjs <<I have no idea what they want. I do think that if you look at the size of the parking lot, they may have expected more people than what they got. Everything is relative to expectations.>> When those parking lots were built most guests stayed off property. I can remember them packed. Now so many of the guests stay on property that the buses relieve much of the parking congestion. Also with hopping you often don't move your car only yourself. I'm afraid that this is like much of your argument, not completely thought out. <<"Say what you will but there is absolutely NO change in the theme of any of FW's pavillions" This is starting to get funny. the entire place has been completely made over, yet people are trying to insist that it has not.>> If the main THEME of any of the pavillions has completely changed it would give you more credibility to site specifically rather than scoff @ others opions. Which I might add was follow up with a pavillion by pavillion review. I'm sure this will not change you mind but I feel better.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Jon, At EPCOT they have over 25 years changed out one attration at a time. It wasn't in any way a massive redo that changed the entire artistic direction resulting in flattening the turnstiles, SSE and evrything in btween. They updated the attractions, not changed the artistic direction of any "main streen" section of any Disney park unless you want to count adding A BUH a massive artistic retooling.>> This is the crux of the point ... and one Jon keeps missing ... or choosing to do so. Slow change that doesn't fundamentally alter the look and feel of 1/2 the park is in no way comparable to what is transpiring in Anaheim.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<This is starting to get funny. the entire place has been completely made over, yet people are trying to insist that it has not.>> Because you're stating something that simply isn't true. 'The entire place' hasn't been made over and repeating it ad nauseum won't make it so ... 1/2 of the park has barely been touched, the other 1/2 has seen some major changes and some much smaller-scale updating OVER A QUARTER OF A CENTURY. "What DCA is undergoing (or will be) is unprecedented in Disney theme park history." <<You keep saying this, and yet, it's not true, and I've pointed out why it's not true.>> No. You've pointed out why you believe it isn't true based upon factual inaccurate statements. "is that EPCOT has changed over a quarter of a century." <<And DCA will be chaning over the course of a decade or more. So? What other park has had half of it been removed/replaced?>> DCA has already been changing drastically almost from Day 1. From having its entertainment completely changed ... to having major sponsors pull out within months (a first for Disney, BTW) ... to having attractions and dining facilities mothballed before the place was even a year old. No other park is comparable using those items for comparison. "In 1992, EPCOT didn't have its main entrance completely transformed and rethemed, didn't have all sorts of attractions pulled out with others tossed in (regardless of theme or appropriateness), its orginal icon wasn't removed etc ..." <<But it has now. Half the park is basially a redo.>> But is isn't. Even after 25 years. It hasn't. SSE is still SSE. The Seas are still the Seas. The Land is still the Land. Energy is still energy. "If you're going to just mindlessly list things that have been updated " <<These aren't updates, they are rebuilds, in some cases complete tear down and rebuilds. The pavilions are not small things. These things are absolutely huge, and a lot of money has been spent in making Epcot more accessible.>> One. That's the only complete teardown at EPCOT -- Horizons to Mission Space. But I'll even give you TT from WoM. That's still two. "EPCOT's changes were never the type that DCA is undergoing." <<Actually, they are pretty similar in that they have been slowly trying to move away from the boring edutainment label to things that are more exciting and theme park like fun stuff. It's a definite change in direction.>> A change in direction? Sure. But a complete rebuild of 1/2 the park. A total reworking of the park, including basic infrastructure etc ...? nope. <<No one has said anyone has an agenda. We simply don't agree on this.>> Fine. "I doubt I'm telling you anything different than Bob Iger would tell you if you were at a cocktail party with the man." <<If I were at a cocktail party with him, he'd probably be telling me to leave.>> I dunno. I've been at parties where he's been, and no one has asked me to leave ... and remember, I stalk mid-level Disney managers for fun ... then I hunt them down on my private 300-acre game reserve and mount their heads on my walls. "Communicore, which became Innoventions, was always supposed to change." <<Yes, it changed into something completely different.>> Yes, perhaps. But as I've said, it's always been an area that was supposed to be changed and updated very frequently. Do you really think the DCA entrance was supposed to be destroyed and rebuilt/rethought at all, let alone before the place was even a decade old? "you toss out this idea that EPCOT has somehow been a failure by Disney metrics " <<I didn't say that.>> I'll just quote what you said: "The problem with Epcot, if you look at the parking lot, is that it never got as many people as they thought it would. So, they've been trying desperately, throwing billions at this thing, to build it up and make it so that it doesn't seem so stodgy." If Al Lutz, or anyone else, had thrown out the same wording about DCA, you'd be on the attack saying no one could possibly know what Disney's corporate goals for success/failure were? But you feel like you have the knowledge to toss out the same words about a park that has been incredibly successful by any metrics for 25 years. That seems hypocritical to me. "but now you propose that EPCOT, which has always been one of the world's Top 3-4 most visited parks for a quarter of a century is actually not pulling in the numbers Disney wants??!?" <<I have no idea what they want. I do think that if you look at the size of the parking lot, they may have expected more people than what they got.>> Sorry, but with parking lots, size really doesn't matter. Because so many guests stay on-property now, even on the busiest days, you can often find thousands of empty spaces at any of the Disney lots. It certainly in no way equates with how the parks are doing and anyone in management would tell you this. <<Everything is relative to expectations.>> Agreed. So when Bob Iger tells the media that 'DCA has been a challenge' and uses much stronger language behind the scenes, it's safe to assume the park hasn't lived up to whatever expectations TWDC had for it. But they see the potential based upon the success of DL's 50th, DD and the whole resort expansion ... they see the money flowing in despite DCA's flaws, they see the extended days added on to out-of-towners visits to see even more potential. That's why they're investing billions. Because they'd love to add another day or two to those vacations, and with a pumped up DCA, they'll be able to. "when Eisner, Pressler and Co. decided to throw away everything the WDC learned about building and operating Disney parks when DCA was conceived of, they set themselves up for a true disaster." <<And the new changes reflect them throwing away yet other ideas and lessons learned. They are just throwing away a different set of rules than the first group did. >> Yeah. One huge difference though. The first set of ideas thrown away were based upon 40-plus years of creative and financial success. The second set was based upon the notion people would accept anything with the Disney name on it in Anaheim. It was a park designed by consultants, real estate experts and retailers ... not Imagineers. "Disney has released a tiny amount of what is planned" <<I am only going by what they have announced so far. I base my statements on that alone. If they change or add to what they announce, I'll modify my opinion. As of now, it does not look all that great.>> I like much of what I've heard, but I believe in waiting and experiencing something before ripping it. I wish there were more California-themed attractions and less cartoon-based ones, but again, nothing has been built yet, except for Midway Mania and that has nothing to do with the long-range plans announced ... <<I couldn't care less what Al says about anything, he's totally unreliable.>> We'll just disagree about that.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 "To be more concise, here is why the EPCOT analogy fails." <<What it comes down to is that the place has been completely ripped and rebuilt.>> Except that it hasn't been. <<Nothing in DCA is even getting something like that. The Hollywood area is still going to be the Hollywood area, the pier will be the pier, the airfield will still be the airfield. There will be a new land. And the entrance is being changed. That's the extent of it as of now.>> That's a very simplistic commentary on what's going to happen. <<I think you guys are overstating what is happening to DCA, and understating what has happened at other parks. My guess is you'll say I'm doing the reverse.>> Ok. You're doing the reverse. Really. <<This whole DCA change smacks more of ego than anything else to me. I can understand wanting to modify the rules as time goes on, but the manner in which they are now doing it smacks of them not understanding them at all. I don't know if that is a problem at WDI, or some other area in the company dictating to them. But it is plain that you have a marketing driven product here now as opposed to one that built its reputation on innovation. It results in a very obvious reduction in they quality of their offerings.>> I think you have a very good idea of why things have gone down the way they have ... too many people at Disney do not understand what made Disney, Disney. They also have become totally obsessed with the bottom line, which, frankly, you can't do in a creative business as if you're WalMart or the Gap or the Olive Garden. Creativity and entertainment can't be governed strictly by money people, who have no idea how the creative process works. It's also safe to say that many Disney execs just don't care about much beyond what their quarterly results show and how it affects their bonuses and stock options.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <And St Louis was an interest due to demographics (even now Chicago makes up that largest US demo to visit WDW). < yep - one of the reasons " Doorway to Dreams" opened in Woodfield Mall - the first DVC sales office ( complete 1-2 bedroom models from AK ) - to demo accomodations outside of the locations themselves I believe
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <a href="http://dvc.disney.go.com/dvc/miniSite/doorwayToDreams?name=DoorwayTeasersPage" target="_blank">http://dvc.disney.go.com/dvc/m iniSite/doorwayToDreams?name=DoorwayTeasersPage</a>
Originally Posted By jonvn "When those parking lots were built most guests stayed off property." The lots have never been full to my knowledge. "If the main THEME of any of the pavillions has completely changed " A completely irrelevent point. The main themes of DCA are not changing. And aside from that, when you completely rebuild something, it doesn't matter if the theme stays or not. This is just a red herring to help ignore the fact that the place has been totally rebuilt. "Because you're stating something that simply isn't true." Of course it's true. I listed all the things that were changed and or replaced. It basically is everything in FW. Everything. You can try and claim that it didn't happen, but it is simply there to be seen. You can try and make excuses for how it does not count for reasons you wish to invent, but the final upshot is that the FW area has been totally changed over. Half the theme park. Half a 300 acre theme park. "It hasn't. SSE is still SSE" It's been revamped. As has the rest of the things. Paradise Pier after the changes will still be paradise Pier. It's another irrelevant argument. "That's the only complete teardown at EPCOT -- Horizons to Mission Space. But I'll even give you TT from WoM. That's still two." That would be the some then. Some of them have been total rip downs and rebuilds. But then, you also have things like communicore which was replaced, too. It is again ridiculous to suggest that because communicore was "supposed to change" that the change would be for something completely different. That's just ignoring the facts. "If Al Lutz, or anyone else" What are you, his love slave? What do you keep dragging him into this for? "But you feel like you have the knowledge to toss out the same words about a park that has been incredibly successful by any metrics for 25 years." They have systematically been making the FW area more accessible as a theme park and making it appear less like a world's fair. They've been doing this ongoing for years now. What they do internally I have no idea, and don't claim to, so don't put words in my mouth. However it is pretty obvious what they have removed and what they have replaced it with. "Sorry, but with parking lots, size really doesn't matter." It does matter, if they expected a certain number of vehicles and planned for it, and they did not show up. "when Bob Iger tells the media that 'DCA has been a challenge' and uses much stronger language behind the scenes, it's safe to assume the park hasn't lived up to whatever expectations TWDC had for it." My guess is that it's not doing what the original forecasts were. I don't know what stronger language he uses behind the scenes, and no one here claims to have heard him say anything behind the scenes. "The first set of ideas thrown away were based upon 40-plus years of creative and financial success. The second set was based upon the notion people would accept anything with the Disney name on it in Anaheim. It was a park designed by consultants, real estate experts and retailers ... not Imagineers." I'm sorry, but didn't WDI have some involvement in the park? Seems to me that if they did, then there were "imagineers" working on it. Most of the people they have working on these projects are contractors or short term employees at best. "I believe in waiting and experiencing something before ripping it." I don't need to be hit on the head with a hammer to know it will hurt. Neither do I need to go to a theme park that has little else but cartoon based rides to know it is not going to be enjoyable.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Except that it hasn't been." Except it has, and I've listed the things that have changed. It's everything. EVERYTHING. I see a lot of excuse making as to why this doesn't count, but the fact remains, everything has been changed. Most rather substantially. "That's a very simplistic commentary on what's going to happen." It's precisely what is going to happen. I suppose I should also mention they'll add some extra decor to the place, too. Tail off, fins on, bit of gold paint to make good.
Originally Posted By dshyates Jon, If EPCOT has changed to a DCA level, What was the theme for Future World before it was Future World? The concrete and titanium mall-esque Sun Court will become Walt Disney Plaza. An entirely different artistic directiom. Resulting in it being torn down to the ground and rebuilt. The hub wienie of no Disney Park has been removed and replaced. The closest would be adding the Big Ugly Hat., and that is hardly flattening from the gate to the wienie and everything in between. Jon, saying that freshing the attractions is akin to a massive redo is like saying DL's main street was completely redone because the painted the trash cans.
