Originally Posted By EighthDwarf I think rising standards of living are good for America and we have had that for decades. What does it matter if someone has more than you? Is richer than you? How does that hurt you? The problem is a rising standard of living wasn't enough for middle America and we had to have everything we wanted right now. Instant gratification. The McMansion, the boat, the $50,000 SUV, the trip to Europe, the Luis Vuitton bag. The problem isn't the widening gap betwen rich and poor, it is the widening gap between fantasy and reality, between fiscal responsibility and reckless spending. Middle America forgot the phrase "I can't afford it" so they are re-learning it the hard way. Make it a class argument if you wish, but that is just another way to widen the fantasy/reality gap.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << The problem is a rising standard of living wasn't enough for middle America and we had to have everything we wanted right now. >> Really? For decades we have see stagnation of wages. Yet, Americans were encouraged by corporate titans to spend, spend, spend. Instead of raising wages at the widget factory so employees could go out and buy more widgets, the widget manufacturers decided that they would open up a financing department to loan their employees money to buy things! What a great scheme -- the company keeps wages low and makes interest off the money it's loaning too! Is it any wonder that GM, Sears, and GE all have some of the largest financial service companies in the world? It was all part of their master plan to enslave workers to debt while they profited off of lower wages and interest payments on loans. Of course, it was all a Ponzi scheme that couldn't continue forever and all those brilliant consultants to industry are now trying to figure out how we can possibly have an economic recovery while still not giving anyone a pay raise or hiring anyone. I suspect they'll scratch their heads a little longer while they steal the last remaining bits of money in the coffers for their bonuses before the whole enterprise goes belly up.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Make it a class argument if you wish, but that is just another way to widen the fantasy/reality gap.>> BS. The gap between executive/management pay and worker pay has been widening since Reagan. Workers' wages have stagnated for decades, while managers' wages and especially executive compensation has grown astronomically. CEOs never made multi-million dollar salaries before the nineties. The executives are profiting largely from the stagnating wages of their workers. It IS a class argument. It IS a class struggle. And you're sticking your head in the sand if you cannot or will not recognize this simple fact.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf <<For decades we have see stagnation of wages.>> Simply not true. Yes, wages have been stagnant for the last decade, but they were steadily rising for decades before that - and will again. <<It was all part of their master plan to enslave workers to debt while they profited off of lower wages and interest payments on loans.>> That's one (twisted) way to look at it. (Do you really believe that? If so, what's stopping you from painting yourself red, tatooing a hammer and sickle to your forehead and stirring up your fellow Bolsheviks?) Anyway, I would argue they were simply keeping up with demand. People wanted their stuff and they were simply helping people to buy it. They didn't create the demand (like you are suggesting); they simply responded to it. Question for you though: were you rallying in front of car dealerships warning people not to enslave themselves to their Hummers 5 years ago? Or was this a recent epiphany of yours? <<I suspect they'll scratch their heads a little longer while they steal the last remaining bits of money in the coffers for their bonuses before the whole enterprise goes belly up.>> Ah, I get it now. No need to revolt when the whole system is going to fail anyway. Boy won't we all be glad when you're there to pick up the pieces and show us the error of our ways. What an optimistic world that will be. <<The executives are profiting largely from the stagnating wages of their workers. It IS a class argument. It IS a class struggle.>> Good news Goof, looks like you have a comrade in skinnerbox. The revolution is under way!
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Simply not true. Yes, wages have been stagnant for the last decade, but they were steadily rising for decades before that - and will again.>> Wrong. Adjust the numbers for inflation. Wages have barely kept up for some workers, but have not kept up for most workers. They have been stagnant for decades in terms of real dollars, in terms of buying power, and not just during the past ten years. But wages for executives have outpaced inflation and workers' wages by 400% or more. That's flat out immoral and unethical. <<Good news Goof, looks like you have a comrade in skinnerbox. The revolution is under way!>> What a great compliment! I am deeply honored that you would place me in such good company! "VIVA LA RESISTANCE!!"
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << Yes, wages have been stagnant for the last decade, but they were steadily rising for decades before that >> Wages rose, but not any faster than inflation. In fact, wages have not kept up with inflation for the past 30 years. << They didn't create the demand (like you are suggesting); they simply responded to it. >> Tell that to the marketing folks at Ditech Home Mortgages. I recall a time when you couldn't watch TV without seeing a Ditech ad. I guess it's only a coincidence that Ditech was a subsidiary of GMAC, a subsidiary of GM. (Take out a home equity loan and buy a Hummer!) << Question for you though: were you rallying in front of car dealerships warning people not to enslave themselves to their Hummers 5 years ago? Or was this a recent epiphany of yours? >> If you go back through my postings here, you'll find I have been very consistent here for many years. I rallied against the home equity ATM machine long before the bubble popped and it became popular. Some folks here said that I was just a negative sourpuss for raining on the parade.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Do you really believe that? If so, what's stopping you from painting yourself red, tatooing a hammer and sickle to your forehead and stirring up your fellow Bolsheviks?<< Smile when you say that, prole. If things get worse, it's anybody's ballgame.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf <<What a great compliment! I am deeply honored that you would place me in such good company! "VIVA LA RESISTANCE!!">> Great. And here are some words to rally around: "The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles." and "The modern bourgeois society that has sprouted from the ruins of feudal society has not done away with class antagonisms. In has established new classes, new conditions of oppression, new forms of struggle in place of the old ones." and "Of all the classes that stand face to face with the bourgeoisie today, the proletariat alone is a really reolutionary class. The other classes decay and finally disappear in the face of modern industry; the proletariat is its special and essential product." and "The immediate aim of the Communists is the same as that of all the other proletarian parties: formation of the proletariat into a class, overthrow of the bourgeois supremacy, conquest of political power byt the proletariat." and "The distinguishing feature of Communism is not the abolition or property generally, but the abolition of bourgeois property. But modern bourgeois private property is the final and most complete expression of the system of producing and appropriating products, that is based on class antagonisms, on the exploitation of the many by the few."
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf <<Smile when you say that, prole. If things get worse, it's anybody's ballgame.>> Oh, I'm not a prole. I believe in myself. I believe in survival of the fit. I believe in opportunity and incentive. I believe I can succeed. I work with many people that were born into humble circumstances and now make a lot of money now. How? By hard work, by education, by making good decisions. By being fit. The system works for those who work. If you see people getting ahead, figure out what they do. Try to emulate them. When I started out I looked around at those making a lot of money and I figured out what I needed to do to get there. And guess what - I am well on my way. Capitalism rewards innovators, risk-takers, producers - because that's what increases the standard of living for everyone else, including you non-producers. You can fight against that if you wish, but you will be left behind. The good news for you is that us producers make enough money to spare some change when you beg for it on the street corner.
Originally Posted By barboy /// you see people getting ahead, figure out what they do. Try to emulate them./// And this exactly why I attended a few Tom Vu seminars.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***The good news for you is that us producers make enough money to spare some change when you beg for it on the street corner.*** I can't quite figure out if this is more pathetic or more self-righteous, but I'll go with a tie. Hope you don't kick the ones you don't feel like throwing change at, on your morning stroll!
Originally Posted By Mr X EighthDwarf is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>And this exactly why I attended a few Tom Vu seminars.<< LOL!~ Dang, I miss those infomercials. They were fantastic. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQNdi-fRExc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...di-fRExc</a>
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << I work with many people that were born into humble circumstances and now make a lot of money now. How? By hard work, by education, by making good decisions. >> Can you provide some examples of the idustries and educational backgrounds of some of these people? I want to learn from the best. What sort of education do you suggest for someone that wants to make a lot of money these days?
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy I wealthiest guy I know is a used car salesman. He's worth several hundred million dollars. He made most of his money by selling used cars to poor people at exhorbitant interest rates, repossessing the vehicle when they couldn't make the payments, and then selling the vehicle again. If that's the result of hard work and education, I think more of our colleges should be teaching people how to sell cars instead of things like math and science. I know another guy who is fantastically rich. He inherited a business from his father. He went to second tier schools and made miserable grades. He has an office, but spends about 75% of his time on his yacht, the golf course, or at the casino. He's building a new multi-million dollar waterfront home right now from all the money he makes from his superior education and hard work.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Oh, I'm not a prole. I believe in myself. I believe in survival of the fit. I believe in opportunity and incentive. I believe I can succeed.<< I believe that you're naive. And I believe that you're proving the points in that long article that I posted last night about the Conservative mindset. To a frightening extent. >>31 reduces complex economic realities to platitudes I'm afraid. << Exactly. >>31 brillant post.<< Urk. I can tell that reading these posts in the context of that article is going to make me even more sure we are SO screwed. Sometimes maybe it's better just not knowing.
