Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << Well, I'm sorry K2M, but I find it a little insulting that you're condemning our CIA and military personnel based on idle speculation. >> I don't think criticism is the same as condemnation.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << I'm willing to lower our standing with the world to save innocent lives. >> Well, we have certainly accomplished the first part of your statement.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***<But there would be even fewer innocent lives lost if our military had not been there in the first place.> Not necessarily.*** My bad. What I should have said was, there would be even fewer innocent lives lost by our hands if etc...
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I'm willing to lower our standing with the world to save innocent lives.*** Some of us are not. (since our standing in the world is very important from a moral standpoint in order to stop atrocities in future along with a coalition of governments, and all that goes with being the "leader of the free world") And I resent the hell out of bush for being just as willing as Doug here to screw ourselves into isolationism on false pretenses.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***And the second as well.*** Empty rhetoric without a shred of proof. The only proof we have available is that the White House FAILED to save 3000 lives on September 11th. Since then, they have lowered the standing of America, tortured, attacked without provocation, and generally acted like the Communists did. Which is really crappy for America, and there is no proof that ANY of that prevented jack.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I find it a little insulting that you're condemning our CIA and military personnel based on idle speculation.<< You can attempt to frame the argument this way -- I condemn the military, I am not interested in saving innocent lives -- but it is just a debate tactic. One of the largest reasons why I am against us torturing is because I really don't want it to happen to our troops. The more we lower the bar, look the other way, get cute with semantics, then we lose the moral high ground to punish those that would use these tactics on our own troops. And we start to lose what has usually set us apart from uncivilized, unlawful gulags. Frankly, I don't care about what happens to terrorists. If they're guilty, hang them, shoot them, I don't care. Mow them down on the battlefield. But once we capture one, don't shrink to their level. You say it's insulting that I think that our people can be more creative and not resort to torture. I think our CIA and military personnel are better than that, and you see that as an insult?
Originally Posted By DAR << I'm willing to lower our standing with the world to save innocent lives. >> But the thing about this country is we've always been the cool kid that tries to get along with everyone and protects the weak from the bullies. We shouldn't be the bullies ourselves.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlI322hcCUA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...322hcCUA</a>
Originally Posted By Mr X ***One of the largest reasons why I am against us torturing is because I really don't want it to happen to our troops. The more we lower the bar, look the other way, get cute with semantics, then we lose the moral high ground to punish those that would use these tactics on our own troops. And we start to lose what has usually set us apart from uncivilized, unlawful gulags.*** A sentiment above and beyond...and one that Doug has no good answer for (except that he'll try with his "if that's ALL they do to them, I'll be happy" crap..while ignoring the "moral high ground" part of the equation that you so ELOQUENTLY expressed). Well said, K2M.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>condemning our CIA and military personnel << Man, this really gets me steamed. You know, the only people I have "condemned" is those in the Bush Administration who got cute with the definition of torture and used it to attempt to make a connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda to cover their own rears for starting a "pre-emptive" war. And I praised and pointed to the efforts of the fellow in that 60 Minutes piece who got info from Saddam who was either military or CIA (I can't recall at the moment) as an example. I have never once on these boards said anything against our military troops. I have a lot of family hat has served over the years and have great respect for those that serve. So you don't get to pin that tail on me. It is unfounded and unfair.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I have never once on these boards said anything against our military troops*** Nobody has, as far as I can recall. And yet Doug and his Con friends will make that a talking point against you nontheless. You know how that works, right?
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Doug has no good answer for (except that he'll try with his "if that's ALL they do to them, I'll be happy" crap..> Right. They strip our guys naked and drag them through the streets, break their bones, and behead them, and we consider putting them in a box with a caterpillar, and we're losing "the moral high ground"? I just don't see it.
Originally Posted By DyGDisney >>>Since then, they have lowered the standing of America, tortured, attacked without provocation, and generally acted like the Communists did. Which is really crappy for America, and there is no proof that ANY of that prevented jack.<<< I agree with this completely. Since when is it our place to go into other countries and try to save them from THEMSELVES by killing them? We have lost our moral standing in the world community and I hope we can get it back.
Originally Posted By DyGDisney Doug and DAR --- you are Christians so am I. This is an overly used, secularized term, but "What would Jesus do?" Have you heard the song, "I want to be like my Jesus"? I know our country is not to live up to the moral code of Jesus, but as Christians we are, you know, turn the other cheek, love your enemies, etc. It's ironic that the Christian right are the ones calling for killing and torturing.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Man, this really gets me steamed.> Try imagining how steamed you'd get if, because you say it's okay to pour water on a terrorist's face in order to get information that will save lives, you approve of torturing innocents. You don't own moral outrage, to be dispensed as you see fit. And you don't get to make accusations based on anonymous leaks that impugn people who were trying to keep you safe and not get a little thrown back at you.
Originally Posted By DyGDisney >>>One of the downsides is innocent people die in war.<<< This is the same argument my mom uses when I talk to her about it. The terrorists who attacked our country on 9/11 believed they were at war with us so they can use the same excuse. It doesn't make it okay.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Right. They strip our guys naked and drag them through the streets, break their bones, and behead them, and we consider putting them in a box with a caterpillar, and we're losing "the moral high ground"? I just don't see it.*** You're right, Doug. You don't see it. You completely missed the most important part of Kar2oonMan's comment to you. The part which explains why, BECAUSE we stand for something more just and more civilized, we can rightously CONDEMN and go after the scumbags who drag our people through the streets and break their bones and behead them...with all the authority of the world behind us. Or, we used to be able to. That's the part you missed Doug. And it's sad, since K2M actually explained it to you so very well.
Originally Posted By Mr X "approve of torturing INNOCENTS"? you are so amazingly full of crap, it makes me want to puke.
Originally Posted By Mr X I deleted 90% of 219, by the way...it would have been epic in it's utter condemnation of you and your tactics, but I'm trying, real hard, to keep things civilized here.
