Originally Posted By fkurucz <<If Joseph Smith restored the true church of Jesus Christ and the "fulness of the gospel", why has the Mormon church changed so much in the last 170 years? >> This is a reflection of the different nature that God has in Mormonism than in mainstream Christianity. In mainstream Christianity God is eternal (no beginning, no end) and thus never changing. As UtahJosh himself has expressed the God of Mormonism changes his mind, and apparently it happens very often. This is one reason why some Christian critics insist that Mormons worship a different God, even if he has the same name (Jesus).
Originally Posted By jonvn If you had to learn about Scientology ONLY through their websites, you'd think that it was the greatest, most useful and logical thing in the world. But if you look around at it from other perspectives, not so much. That's why telling people to keep looking at the mormon web sites is disingenuous. It's also enough. If you want to keep prosyletizing, I'm going to start posting about what a crock your religion basically is, too. I've refrained, but I am tired of having someone come on here and try to convert me.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>This is a reflection of the different nature that God has in Mormonism than in mainstream Christianity. In mainstream Christianity God is eternal (no beginning, no end) and thus never changing.<< And this is actually a large sign of the different standards Mormons and Christians have for each other. Each group has their own apologists who will explain exactly why God never changes, even though both followings have changed drastically over the years. But those same apologists will point to the other group and say "See, this can't really be God's church, it changes too much!" People are probably going to think I worship Helen Whitney, but here's another quote from her I really don't worship her, but she's spent a long time dissecting (in a positive way) various religions and faith traditions, and she is one of the most insightful people I've ever met. From the same link I provided before: "You have to ask whether you are applying a double standard when you focus on all the messiness of Joseph Smith’s life and the lack of proof for the Book of Mormon when at the same time you give a free pass to venerable older faiths whose own messiness is conveniently lost in the mists of time."
Originally Posted By Mr X Kinda along the lines of the catholic who argues that people who ate meat on fridays are in hell even though they changed the rules (because the rules were the rules THEN, so that's good enough), rather than just say "yeah, it was a dumb rule...good that they changed it".
Originally Posted By sherrytodd <<<I've refrained, but I am tired of having someone come on here and try to convert me.>>> I have never felt that he was trying to convert anyone. If you feel that way, then just stay out of the thread and move on to another.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <I am tired of having someone come on here and try to convert me.> Jon, i've done no such thing. People kept posting things about Mormons, and I gave my polite responses (for the most part). I then started this thread to let people know where they can best find out what we believe. If you want to find out why other people don't believe, LDS.org is not the place to go.
Originally Posted By ecdc Josh, repeatedly posting the www.lds.org link only proves the point that Helen Whitney was making in my first post. It's the perspective of an outsider who's trying to tell Mormons why people find them to be secretive and suspicious. One of those issues is that people think Mormons won't say what they really believe. Going to lds.org only reinforces that belief because it's all a sugar-coated, PR presentation.
Originally Posted By RC Collins jonvn >>"But a servant which Jesus Christ?" According to them he is. That's all that matters.<< That’s all that matters *to you*, because you don’t see a difference either way. To Christians, someone who serves the one and only true God is doing something much different than someone serving one of many gods. >>If they are happy with their ideas, leave them alone.<< I will leave alone anyone who does not wish to discuss these matters. I will not stop offering counters, though, when an organization tries to piggyback on Christianity, when it is actually preaching a different Jesus and a different gospel, especially if they are doing it through television spots and going door to door. I don’t care if it is a church based in Utah, an organization from Brooklyn, or white supremacists who deny that Jesus was a Jew and hate people when they should be loving. melekalikimaka >>I'm glad you have found what works for you.<< I get that you are trying to be kind, but what does this statement really mean? Unless you are a Mormon, you think he is devoting himself, including his time and money, to a lie, and he’s dutifully trying to get other people to do likewise. Or perhaps you think he has found the truth, but you’d rather not live by the truth yourself? I have no problem when someone tells me what I believe is a lie or a fairy tale, because they are being open and honest about what they think, not patronizing me. It “works for†him insofar as he believes it. If he is wrong, though, he’s given his allegiance to an organization that teaches lies as God-given commands and recruits others. If some other people are right, then he still not right with God. If that is true, then ultimately, it doesn’t work for him. jonvn >>Every mormon I've ever met has been a very nice person.<< If a Mormon dutifully lives by his or her faith, they tend to be friendly to others and live cleanly and are patriotic American citizens. That I do not deny. Same goes for Christians. All Christians should not be faulted for the sins of individuals, and the LDS church and devout Mormons should not be faulted for what Mormons who aren’t being true to Mormonism do. Jon, you probably don’t like Christian political activism and evangelizing, but Mormons do likewise. But I’m referring to one-on-one interaction and family-to-family, not politics. >>One of the things that surprises me are these stories of them turning their back on others. That was just never my experience with them.<< I have heard plenty of these kinds of stories when we’re talking about people who have left the LDS church, but that is not unique to the LDS church. Cultic religious organizations (cultic in sociological sense) frequently engage in hostility, shunning, etc. towards those who have “left the foldâ€. EighthDwarf >>The church Joseph Smith founded is vastly different today than it was, which is a good thing for current members.<< This is true. This is one reason why there were many splinter groups that formed after Smith, including what used to be known as the Reformed Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the legal heirs to Smith’s organization, but tiny when compared to the LDS church based in Utah. Whenever someone claims (falsely, in my opinion) to be God’s ultimate prophet and their religious organization is the only true organization of God on earth, there is bound to be splintering once that prophet/leader dies and/or if a significant change/reversal is made. Look at Islam after Mohammed – it quickly split between Sunni, Shiite, etc. The Worldwide Church of God’s founder/leader/prophet Herbert W. Armstrong died, and his successors started making changes, as in heading more towards “Protestant†Christianity – accepting that other churches were okay, that Armstrong was wrong on some things, and that they were no longer going to officially teach Anglo or British-Israelism. Many splinter groups formed as a result, most of them with “Church of God†in the name. >>But claiming to have the restored church of Jesus Christ seems quite a stretch when modern Mormons have thrown aside many of the restored church's original teachings.<< Nowhere does the New Testament teach that there would be a *complete* apostasy of the church. In fact, it says the opposite – that the church and true Gospel would endure. If I recall correctly, some LDS teachings actually contradict their basic premise that their was a total apostasy… something about some true believers or believer sticking around, alive all of this time. utahjosh >>But to me, the key is that there have been no changes to the doctrines of salvation - what it's really all about.<< Yes, but when the church or an individual prophet claims to be the ultimate authority on earth speaking for God, and then says things that are demonstrably untrue on contradictory to earlier infallible pronouncements, there is a problem. This is a chart contrasting “Historic†Christian (it is Protestant) beliefs with “cults†and other world religions (they include Roman Catholicism in that category): <a href="http://www.heavenboundgb.worthyofpraise.org/onlinebooks/comparebelief/cultchart.html" target="_blank">http://www.heavenboundgb.worth yofpraise.org/onlinebooks/comparebelief/cultchart.html</a> I don’t think it is entirely accurate (saying, for instance, that New Agers don’t have key historical figures), but is appears to be good overall at first glance. Here is another chart: <a href="http://www.carm.org/cults/cultgrid.htm" target="_blank">http://www.carm.org/cults/cult grid.htm</a> I know Josh is likely to say that we shouldn’t go by these charts and we should go to an official LDS site for info, but I’d like to know what exactly these charts say about Mormonism that is incorrect.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Nowhere does the New Testament teach that there would be a *complete* apostasy of the church. In fact, it says the opposite – that the church and true Gospel would endure.> We can both point to scriptures that "prove" each of our points. We understand them differently. <Yes, but when the church or an individual prophet claims to be the ultimate authority on earth speaking for God, and then says things that are demonstrably untrue on contradictory to earlier infallible pronouncements, there is a problem. > I don't see any statements made by LDS Prophets that contradict any eternal truths I know about, in the Bible or elsewhere. You probably do, but that's a different interpretation.
Originally Posted By utahjosh RC, Those charts are accurate, but they do not represent the important principles of the LDS faith. They are obviously made to make "Christianity" look like the right choice.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Interesting that that site refers to Protestantism (full disclosure: I'm Protestant) as "historic Christianity," and Roman Catholicism as, well, not. Also, it includes small sects like "The Way International" but doesn't even include Eastern Orthodox (which arguably has the most historic "throughline" of any Christian church).
Originally Posted By Mr X Without going into too much detail, I have to say that for you, Josh, to be making statements about what is or isn't a "valid" source seems to be right along the same lines as ordering people not to talk about certain things. And for the record, you've been a bit dishonest about what does or does not go on within your group (though in fairness the entire group is less than forthcoming about the secret rituals and such). So why would you expect people to "take your word for it", or click on the link to the main office? That hardly makes any sense for someone wanting to learn ALL the facts, does it?
Originally Posted By utahjosh For someone who wants to know what Mormons believe in, EVERYTHING (except the temple ceremony's specific wording)is found on www.LDS.org. It's the valid source for WHAT WE BELIEVE. There many other sites that will tell you what they think we believe. There are many other sites that will give a bigger history of what went on in the history of the church. But for the actual beliefs of the church, what we think will give us salvation, it's all at LDS.org.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Everyone freaked out that I said that some guy isn't a "valid" source for knowing the LDS beliefs. I'll stand by that. It's a valid opinion, it's a valid lots of other things. But as a trustworthy source of what the LDS people believe, it's not guaranteed to be that (ie, not necessarily valid)
Originally Posted By utahjosh I really mean no disrespect. The topic of Mormonism came up a week or two ago as an attack, and I've mainly tried to defend the religion, and represent the faith accurately.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I have never felt that he was trying to convert anyone." Constantly putting in posts about learning about being a mormon and linking to the website is. I can figure out how to go to the mormon website. This is similar if someone came on here and started posting links to scientology or rev moon websites. Time to cut it out.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>...there were many splinter groups that formed after Smith, including what used to be known as the Reformed Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the legal heirs to Smith’s organization...<< Actually, it was the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Today it is called the Community of Christ. ( <a href="http://www.cofchrist.org/" target="_blank">http://www.cofchrist.org/</a> ) After Joseph Smith's death in Carthage jail, the LDS church was left without a leader. Brigham Young returned from a mission and soon consolidated leadership to himself, eventually taking the majority of the church followers to what is now Utah. Smith's widow, Emma, along with her children and other members of the church stayed back, and eventually formed the Reorganized Church. This was headed by a direct descendant of Joseph Smith until modern times. According to documents held by the RLDS, and acknowledged as authentic by both LDS leadership and US courts, Smith had specified that the church was to be forever headed by his descendants. The last descendant of Joseph Smith to head the RLDS was Wallace Smith, who stepped aside in 1996.
Originally Posted By jonvn "That’s all that matters *to you*, because you don’t see a difference either way. To Christians, someone who serves the one and only true God is doing something much different than someone serving one of many gods." It's all that matters, to them. To me, to anyone. Since they are Christians, then saying "to Christians" includes them. What you should say is "to my style of christianity." Because that's all it is. "I will not stop offering counters, though, when an organization tries to piggyback on Christianity" And Christians have piggybacked on top of Judaism. And protestants on top of catholics. "Jon, you probably don’t like Christian political activism and evangelizing, but Mormons do likewise." Yes, so? I don't like that, either. And they do get involved in politics. I see very little difference between mormons and other christian groups. You have different excuses for your polytheism. Mainstream christians call their polytheism three facets of the same being. Mormons call it three separate beings. Either way, it's not monotheism, violates the ten commandments, and is a false religious idea if you insist on basing it on the Bible. So let them believe what they want, that if they put on special clothes it does something. Who cares. What you believe is little different.
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka RC, I'm not God. I don't care if josh ends up being "right" or "wrong" in the end. If someone's religion makes them happy and they aren't out hurting innocent people, then who am I to judge them? I don't believe that we can ever truly 100% know the literal truth. Maybe there isn't even one truth to know. I will never say that someone is flat out wrong for believing one thing or not. It's possible that religion is one giant coping mechanism to get through life. It makes people feel better and helps them continue trying. I really don't care one way or the other which way someone chooses as long as it doesn't affect my life. Even if I was a friend of Jesus back in the day, I would never presume that I was the only person who knew everything about him. I don't know everything about my very best friend, my daughter or my husband. Why would I think I could know that about God? If God is real, I could not even fathom all there was to know. Knowing everything and being right about God isn't my biggest worry in goal in life. Telling other people they are wrong about it isn't something I want to do.
Originally Posted By Mr X There was this cool science fiction series (began with "on a pale horse") where ALL the religions were true and all the different "heavens" were up and running for all the faithful. I kinda like that one.
