Originally Posted By utahjosh <Isn't that true josh? I am going to hell for leaving the church?> Nope, that's not true. Calling not being exalted to the highest degree "hell" is not the afterlife I believe in. We do believe that to be exalted to the Celestial kingdom you must be baptized by the proper authority - not baptised by a "Mormon." We see John the baptist as one with that authority. We see the apostles as those who had that authority. The people they baptized don't need to believe in Joseph Smith to be able to live with God. But I assume they would.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <So why do you not have the Gospels of Peter and Hebrews? The Shepherd of Hermas? The Didache? They were written back them. The only reason they are not in the New Testament Canon is because the Catholic Church decided they didn't make the cut.> I don't know. Because our prophets never said they were something worth studying the same as the the Bible and the Book of Mormon. However, no LDS person would say it's a bad idea to read those. Probably a great idea.
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka So...are you saying that a person has to be baptized by John the Baptist to get into the Celestial Kingdom? One other question...I read somewhere that God supposedly has many celestial wives and the people on Earth are the fruit of these relationships? Is God having intercourse with these wives? Is that a true belief or did I stumble onto the wrong website? I'm just curious and trying to figure out what is true and not. Thanks.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <So...are you saying that a person has to be baptized by John the Baptist to get into the Celestial Kingdom?> No. I am saying a person has to be baptized by someone with the proper Priesthood authority to get into the Celestial Kingdom.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <One other question...I read somewhere that God supposedly has many celestial wives and the people on Earth are the fruit of these relationships?> he LDS scriptures do not speak about God having a wife. Neither are there any official statements on the matter. (my guess is that it is because if God has chosen not to talk about that in the scriptures, then maybe we shouldn't talk about it either - out of respect for Her. The closest thing to official doctrine on the matter is the line in the hymn "O My Father." "In the Heavens are parents single? No the thought makes reasons stare. Truth is reason, truth eternal tells me I've a mother there."
Originally Posted By utahjosh For the record, I'm glad to answer honest questions about my faith from people who don't know what the answer will be. I'm not inclined to answer questions that have been debated time and time again by members of the church and questions coming from people who know what my answer will be. I'm not interested in discussing points that are commonly found in anti-Mormon material. I've been through those enough, and I frankly have no interest discussing those things here. I'm not into debates much. But I'll be glad to answer sincere questions from people who don't know much about the LDS church.
Originally Posted By jonvn "It claims to be the original, uncorrupted form of Christianity" If there were no Christianity, there would be no mormon religion.
Originally Posted By jonvn "You don't have Christians walking around claiming to be Jewish," You have people walking around claiming to be similar. That Jesus came for the jews, and they tagged on when the Jews rejected it. It's an extremely similar thing.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <If there were no Christianity, there would be no mormon religion.> It's true. We believe that our church is founded by Jesus Christ, and restored by Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith. Jonvn, I understand your view is that the Mormon church is just a splinter group or an "inspired by" group of the christian religions of the 1800s. Joseph's family was religious, and he read the Bible with his family and on his own. His problem was that he didn't know which church was right, so he prayed to find out. He got an answer nobody expected.
Originally Posted By jonvn "He got an answer nobody expected." He made up something he thought sounded good. People do this all the time. Thomas Jefferson edited the Bible to be more to what he thought it should be. Cults rise and fall all the time. Rev. Moon has millions of devotees. He claims that Jesus came to him in a vision. It's all the same stuff. And yet you all are arguing over it. It's pretty funny. Because the things you are all arguing over are utterly insignificant to anyone who isn't a fan.. Oh well.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <He made up something he thought sounded good.> Well, that's what you believe. I believe something different. Isn't that wonderful!
Originally Posted By jonvn It's fine by me what you want to believe or what you want to call yourself. I just think it's a pile. But you have every right to it.
Originally Posted By jonvn Better get cracking or you'll have an extra hour of standards to write in the afterlife.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad The only problem I have is people in let's say Hawaii telling me that I'm not American, because I live in GA. Anyone get my point? Other than the whole "we are Christians and you no longer are" I really have no problem with the LDS thing at all. I just find the whole thing to be simplified like this: "Let's pick a fight, tell everyone we are the only Christian church, and when they get mad and run us out of town, we can play the "poor pitiful us" card" and it will always at every turn be us against the world." It's ok to believe it, but the history of the LDS is so recent it's inescapable.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >><One other question...I read somewhere that God supposedly has many celestial wives and the people on Earth are the fruit of these relationships?><< From LDS.org: >>"The Mother" is not a term that is used among Church members, in Church meetings, classes or lesson manuals. While the official Proclamation on the Family affirms that each human being is a beloved son or daughter of heavenly parents, there are no teachings about a Heavenly Mother in Latter-day Saint scripture.<< <a href="http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/clarifications-to-religion-writers-and-editors-regarding-newsweek-report" target="_blank">http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnew sroom/eng/commentary/clarifications-to-religion-writers-and-editors-regarding-newsweek-report</a> Then again... From the Basic Manual for Women, Part A: >>President Spencer W. Kimball, speaking to Latter-day Saint girls in Mexico City, said: “You are daughters of God. … You are made in the image of our heavenly mother.<< <a href="http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e1fa5f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=6f327befabc20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1" target="_blank">http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/in dex.jsp?vgnextoid=e1fa5f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=6f327befabc20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1</a> Quotation from President Lee, as excerpted in The Ensign (1973): >>We forget that we have a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother who are even more concerned, probably, than our earthly father and mother, and that influences from beyond are constantly working to try to help us when we do all we can.<< <a href="http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=32c93219c786b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1" target="_blank">http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/in dex.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=32c93219c786b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1</a> From The Ensign (1980) >>Building upon the foundation laid by Joseph Smith, subsequent prophets taught that God was not single, but married; that there is a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother; and that we were made in their image: male and female children. (See James R. Clark, comp., Messages of the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 6 vols., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1965–75, 4:203, 205.)<< <a href="http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=d5fafc3157a6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1" target="_blank">http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/in dex.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=d5fafc3157a6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1</a> From The Ensign (1978): >>When we return to our real home, it will be with the “mutual approbation†of those who reign in the “royal courts on high.†There we will find beauty such as mortal “eye hath not seenâ€; we will hear sounds of surpassing music which mortal “ear hath not heard.†Could such a regal homecoming be possible without the anticipatory arrangements of a Heavenly Mother?<< <a href="http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=f50bd0640b96b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1" target="_blank">http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/in dex.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=f50bd0640b96b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1</a> From a primary teaching text: >>Explain that we all lived in heaven with Heavenly Father before we came to this earth. We are his children. That is why we call him Heavenly Father. We also lived with our heavenly mother and all the rest of Heavenly Father’s children.<< <a href="http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=637e1b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=90c3767978c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1" target="_blank">http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/in dex.jsp?vgnextoid=637e1b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=90c3767978c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1</a> Excerpt from a letter written by a Mormon missionary, quoted in The Ensign (1973): >>Mom, I think that you are feeling some of what our heavenly mother may have felt as she watched us all leave for our earthly missions.<< <a href="http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=5b7dd2b9ae76b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1" target="_blank">http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/in dex.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=5b7dd2b9ae76b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1</a> From a commentary in The Ensign (1986): >>I just wish of all things I could go up and give Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother a big hug and tell them that I made it back.<< <a href="http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=60f967700817b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1" target="_blank">http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/in dex.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=60f967700817b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1</a> From The Ensign (1987): >>Women are endowed with special traits and attributes that come trailing down through eternity from a divine mother... Theirs is a sacred, God-given role, and the traits they received from heavenly mother are equally as important as those given to the young men.<< <a href="http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=16be79356427b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1" target="_blank">http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/in dex.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=16be79356427b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1</a>
Originally Posted By jonvn I swear to god, this sounds like who's better kirk or picard. Or which hobbit was more brave, sam or frodo. ....
