Originally Posted By gadzuux Additionally, there's the whole "war against muslims" thing. As it stands now, it's not true - radical muslims may think so, but that's because it suits their agenda to turn the whole middle east situation into a "holy war" or Jihad. That's what they want - let's not give it to them. BUT - radical christians are just the other side of the same coin. And these christianistas currently reside in positions of real power within the US miliitary - bible quotes on the cover page of the president's briefing - scripture emblazoned on military gun sights, and religious fervor in the leadership of military academies are just a few examples. A surprising number of military officers happily declare themselves to be "holy warriors for christ". This isn't good. These people need to be slapped down hard, otherwise they will continue to think that we're on some mission from god to to eradicate the infidels. We're different from them, but not as different as some people would like us to be.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>A surprising number of military officers happily declare themselves to be "holy warriors for christ". << They should remember Jesus's words in Gethsemane: "He who lives by the sword dies by the sword"
Originally Posted By magnet It's true that fanaticism is rampant and can cause people to do idiotic things which they think are being done with God's approval. Of course, those people are in error. However, it's all too clear that many of the posters in this thread are ready to raise up these scandals as a reason to malign Christianity in general and advocate draconian restrictions on religious freedom. No president or government officer should be required to divest himself of his religious beliefs and expressions while fulfilling his service. If he wants to open all his meetings with a prayer, to whomever, he should be allowed to do it. What is so scary about prayer? I'll tell you. It has nothing to do with the prayer itself. It has everything to do with the prejudices that people hold against people who believe differently from them. People don't want their kids to be involved in prayer not because they are concerned about the act of praying, but because they are scared to death about what other ideals and beliefs those religious people want to put into their kids' heads. So, this attack on prayer, Christianity, and religion in general is just a supreme act of discrimination by fearful people. Fanaticism is an easy diversion to hide behind when pointing the finger.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>However, it's all too clear that many of the posters in this thread are ready to raise up these scandals as a reason to malign Christianity in general and advocate draconian restrictions on religious freedom.<< It's only clear to those desperate find conspiracy when there is none. Unless you can back up the claim with a quote from this thread?
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << No president or government officer should be required to divest himself of his religious beliefs and expressions while fulfilling his service. If he wants to open all his meetings with a prayer, to whomever, he should be allowed to do it. >> By the same token, no President or government official should be demonized if they choose not to pray or omit religion from their official duties. Unfortunately, if we ever had a President who neglected to include references to god in his or her speeches ("God bless the USA"), there would be a loud outcry from the religions right about how un-American that President is.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<People don't want their kids to be involved in prayer not because they are concerned about the act of praying, but because they are scared to death about what other ideals and beliefs those religious people want to put into their kids' heads.>> Baloney. I wouldn't want my kids subjected to classroom prayer because of two reasons. First, it doesn't belong in the classroom. Save that stuff for before and after school, as an elective activity that the parents and students can decide on together. Prayer inside the classroom becomes mandatory, and any student who chooses not to participate will be judged negatively by the teacher who's conducting the prayer, which will have a negative affect on that teacher's opinions of the student. I speak from personal experience on this one, during my very brief attendance in a private Christian school. Second, students who are Jewish or Muslim should not be forced to hear Christian prayers every single morning, nor should atheist students who do not believe in the tenets of any one particular religion. Forcing students to pray every day before class borders on indoctrination, especially when teachers conducting the prayer have zero personal tolerance for religious views different from their own. If the prayers were being conducted by a teacher whose religious beliefs aligned perfectly with each and every student in that classroom, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. But that will NEVER happen in a public school, and will rarely occur in a private school, no matter how fundamentalist or evangelical the administrators happen to be. So it's best to leave the prayer thing outside the classroom where it belongs.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 ...and advocate draconian restrictions on religious freedom." Whoa there, sparky. Me, I'm a Christian myself so I would never advocate such a thing, but... Neither did anyone else. Please show me where they did.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>First, it doesn't belong in the classroom. Save that stuff for before and after school,<< Or right before tests are taken ;-)
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster fkurucz: ". When I worked at Hewlett Packard I was always amused by the fact that our colleagues in HP India did get Good Friday off while we in the US did not. Go figure." Where did you work? I worked for HP in Roseville, CA.
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 "What is so scary about prayer? I'll tell you. It has nothing to do with the prayer itself. It has everything to do with the prejudices that people hold against people who believe differently from them. People don't want their kids to be involved in prayer not because they are concerned about the act of praying, but because they are scared to death about what other ideals and beliefs those religious people want to put into their kids' heads. So, this attack on prayer, Christianity, and religion in general is just a supreme act of discrimination by fearful people. Fanaticism is an easy diversion to hide behind when pointing the finger." Who says it's an attack on Christianity? What if it's an acknowledgement that it's not the only religion out there? Why should only a Christian prayer be said? I think Christians are feeling persecuted about this because they are forced to acknowledge other religions. I doubt that the Jewish, Muslim, atheist kids are "afraid" of anything...
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Where did you work? I worked for HP in Roseville, CA.<< Fort Collins, CO
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>What is so scary about prayer? I'll tell you. It has nothing to do with the prayer itself. It has everything to do with the prejudices that people hold against people who believe differently from them.<< Fair enough. but does banning prayer make those people magically dissappear, or make them less of a threat? Don't get me wrong, I think school prayer is a bad idea. I'm sure that even the Evangs couldn't agree on what kind of prayers to say if they were in charge
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I am ok with prayers, if offered in all faiths, and those of us who do not subscribe to a religion are free to have more recess while the theologians endulge in the my god is better than your god diatribe. I have a dream that one day there is an agnostic president, out and proud. But there does seem to be a huge increase in Jesus freaks in the US (please note, I would never describe all christians in this way, just the fundamentalists). The US was the first country in the world to recognise Judaism as equal. But the US is ethically and constitutionally as much a Christian country as it is Muslim!
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>I am ok with prayers, if offered in all faiths<< I would rather not. Which is why I am OK with none. Besides, the Evangs wouldn't be able to tolerate a Hail Mary, could you imagine how they would react if Muslim or Pagan prayers were offered?
Originally Posted By Mr X No need to imagine such a reaction, KooRoots. Here is a Hindu chaplain attempting to offer a prayer in Congress... <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ9To30Hz7A" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...To30Hz7A</a>
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Exactly. And that can be done off the cuff, with no organized prayer time. That's the thing about God. You don't need an appointment.
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 Seriously! If there are very religious kids in school, why are they not capable of saying a quick, silent prayer before they take a test, or start the day? Why must everyone say a prayer at the same time, out loud?
