Originally Posted By BlueDevilSF >>Seriously! If there are very religious kids in school, why are they not capable of saying a quick, silent prayer before they take a test, or start the day? Why must everyone say a prayer at the same time, out loud?<< Because some people of faith are taught to make spectacles of themselves as a sign of superiority over those who don't share their faith. The maternal side of my family is like that. If I heard "I do/don't __________ because I'M a Christian!" once, I heard it a thousand times growing up.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I'm on the fence on this issue but I'm not convinced one size fits all here. If you have watced "Friday Night Lights" that show has shown players praying before games and so forth. Fiction, yes...but based on fact. There are communities in the United States that know no other way. There are no Jewish populations or Muslim populations. Just very, Christian populations. So, I don't necessarily think this is a Federal matter or even a State matter. The pilgrims came her so they could choose how they professed their faith. If a community chooses to profess it openly...who are the rest of us to say they can't?
Originally Posted By gadzuux These communities that pray openly are also actively making anyone who doesn't share their beliefs and faith unwelcome. Why do you suppose jewish and muslim and hindu people don't settle in these burgs? And I agree with the earlier posters - there are specific reasons that these folks want the vocal public version of prayer and won't settle for a moment of silence - it's a strength in numbers game - forcing their views onto the community at large - either you're with us or you're on the outside. The primary function of schools is to educate, not indoctrinate. It's a fine line that gets crossed regularly in some towns, and demands a kind of conformity to standards set by the most small-minded people among us - the self appointed moral leaders. Plus there's the hubris factor involved in praying to god about a football game. Anyone who thinks this is appropriate demonstrates a complete and total lack of understanding about the purpose of faith and religion. But don't try telling them that.
Originally Posted By mele I think it says somewhere in the Bible that if two or more people are gathered in prayer then the prayers are that much more powerful...or something like that. Anyway, it could be why people want to have prayer groups. Plus, it's just comforting to share your beliefs/joys/interests with other people. That said, I don't care if schools allow prayer groups of any religion, or groups of nearly most any kind, from gathering in their FREE time as long as no one is forced to participate. I can't stress how opposed I am to any sort of organized prayer/school led prayers in which every student must listen to or participate in.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Plus there's the hubris factor involved in praying to god about a football game.<< Horsefeathers. There's nothing wrong with someone praying that they'll play to the best of their abilities in a fair competition and that no one gets hurt. Is it the only (or even best) reason for prayer and faith? Hardly. But saying that anyone who prays before a football game (or a chess match or walking to school or whatever) has a "complete and total lack of understanding about the purpose of faith and religion" is hyperbole on an epic scale.
Originally Posted By ecdc School prayer is the perfect example of that sociological reality that the majority thinks doing things their way is "no big deal" while the minority feels put upon and bristles. You even hear that phrase - "Gosh, what's wrong with prayer! How could ANYBODY have a problem with prayer" Followed by lots of head shaking and lamenting the state of the nation today. But if the shoe is on the other foot, these same people scream bloody murder. It's especially apparent in my community, where it's not even Jewish vs Christian, but one Christian demonitation against another. While the majority group here often pushes for school prayer, members of that same faith in Texas and Arizona have sued to stop school prayer because the format offends them. (I'm trying to avoid the M word to avoid derailing the topic, since the specific faith isn't the point, just the attitude.) The reverse is also true; Evangelicals have protested school prayer on Utah because they believe they're praying to "the wrong God." So while the focus is frequently on those mean old Atheists for not wanting something as wholesome and harmless as prayer, there's often just as much tension between the religious groups themselves since they can't even seem to agree on what words to say and what god to pray to.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Coming from a big city or metropolitan area I can see where people just assume that our country is diverse. But, there are communities all over the plains, the deep south, the north where there is no religious diversity. Communities that are 100% Christian and, in some small communities...cities with only one church. Some politician or judge in DC should not be dictating how those small communities choose to worship, pray or otherwise demonstrate their beliefs. And, I agree with Kar2oon. I've got no problem with people praying for strength to get through anything...whether it be a hard day at work or a tough football game.
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> saying that anyone who prays before a football game has a "complete and total lack of understanding about the purpose of faith and religion" is hyperbole on an epic scale. << I don't think so - obviously. Asking for (and expecting) divine intervention for something as mundane as a game indicates misdirected priorities, at the least. Even worse is thanking god AFTER a win, presumeably because the almighty favors this school over those other guys. The bigger picture is that these people believe (to varying degrees) that they have a "personal" relationship with the almighty and that every event in their meager existence is ordained by god himself. This is borderline delusional and not much different from Elvis talking to them. If this is their mindset, then indeed they lack a basic understanding of what religion is really about. It's okay if you disagree with me, but I'm sticking with my assertion.
Originally Posted By Labuda Anyone happen to catch the Daily Show bit the other night about the Christian group of guys who think their UFC-style fighting is a good way to praise their Lord? These guys bite, kick, and punch in the name of Jesus. HOW is that Christian?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>then indeed they lack a basic understanding of what religion is really about<< What is religion really all about? Since you must know, I am eager to hear it. You've declared whole swaths of people delusional and that they might as well pray to Elvis, but just the same, let's hear what religion is really all about.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Some politician or judge in DC should not be dictating how those small communities choose to worship, pray or otherwise demonstrate their beliefs.<< I disagree. First, are they truly 100% Chriatian? Doubtful, and perhaps because people feel pressured to express faith they don't have. Second, what about a young person who wants to come out as an Atheist in one of these communities? Third, where is the line drawn? Can small communities of like-minded people do anything they like without interference? It's too easy for people to feel unwelcome and like their only choice is to move - it's terribly un-American. The big problem I have with all this is it's not like people of faith are somehow constricted in how they worship. They are free to do whatever they like their home or church. They can pray in their car on the way to school. They have a ton of opportunities to express their faith. But that's not good enough. They want to do it when they want, where they want, and they want to get others to do it with them. They frequently see other people who oppose this as not "American" enough because they've intertwined threir faith and patriotism. I know many good Christians aren't like this, but your "school prayer" crowd frequently is.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Well, not surprisingly I disagree with gadzuux on post 48. For what people pray is of no consequence to anyone other than the individual. I wouldn't thank God for a win...but I'd thank him for giving me the talents that helped me win. And, I believe I have a personal relationship with God. And, while I may be delusional in some respects of life (I thought the CAVS would win, for instance) I don't believe I can be labeled delusional for that. But, I will acknowledge that I have absolutely no part of my being that can understand a person not believing in God and that there is something greater that influences one's life anymore than you can't understand why I do believe it. I can't imagine the loneliness I would feel if I didn't know that God was part of my life. And, you can't believe that.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan But if the shoe is on the other foot, these same people scream bloody murder. It's especially >>apparent in my community, where it's not even Jewish vs Christian, but one Christian demonitation against another.<< I don't disagree. And for that matter I don't disagree with the basic thesis of this thread, ecdc. I think there are plenty of people who entangle religion and politics in all sorts of strange ways. I am often dumbstruck by the difference between the teachings of Christ in the Bible and the political positions some folks on the right adhere to that seem totally opposite those teachings. So, I think especially with post #1, you are correct to a large degree.
Originally Posted By Labuda "But, I will acknowledge that I have absolutely no part of my being that can understand a person not believing in God and that there is something greater that influences one's life anymore than you can't understand why I do believe it." I have a slight issue with the way I'm reading this. Maybe it's just my interpretation, but I read that and see it as you slyly stating "Hey, if I kill someone, it's God's fault - he influenced me." Yes, I know you're NOT saying you're a murderer, but at what point does personal responsibility come into play? Does God make you go 63 mph when the speed limit is 60 mph? If not, why not? Why is he only influencing part of what you do if he is so important to you?
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Well, not surprisingly I disagree with gadzuux on post 48. For what people pray is of no consequence to anyone other than the individual. I wouldn't thank God for a win...but I'd thank him for giving me the talents that helped me win.<< Agreed. I don't pray, but I'm not about to tell people how to pray or how they should worship. That's why I think it's a two-way street. Pray to get world peace, pray to win the big game, pray to a snake, for all I care. Just do it in your home, church, or head where it belongs and not in my kid's school, my work, my town hall, etc. I'm at a loss as to why that's so hard. I certainly don't go to the town hall or the school and tell everyone not to believe in God.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Yes, I know you're NOT saying you're a murderer, but at what point does personal responsibility come into play?<< Not to answer for Wahoo, but he said that God influences his life, not controls every waking minute of it. I don't know anyone who believes that every moment of every day is predestined to happen, and humans have no say in the turn of events or in making choices that affect their own destiny. Not a single person. (Such a person might exist, but I've never heard of it.)
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Because God gave man free will. God influences decisions...at least in my interpretation...but he doesn't make decisions.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I don't pray, but I'm not about to tell people how to pray or how they should worship. That's why I think it's a two-way street. Pray to get world peace, pray to win the big game, pray to a snake, for all I care. Just do it in your home, church, or head where it belongs and not in my kid's school, my work, my town hall, etc. I'm at a loss as to why that's so hard. I certainly don't go to the town hall or the school and tell everyone not to believe in God.<< I think that's about as reasonable and balanced position as we can hope to eventually get to. Like so many things, just a little dose of reasonableness would go a long way. Don't have a heart attack if someone wears a cross necklace, or says God bless you when someone sneezes. Don't come unglued if someone doesn't wish to believe in God and doesn't want a lot of public displays of prayer. Seems too easy.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper So ecdc...you have no problem with 50 young men and coaches saying a prayer in preparation for the big game...so long as they do it in the street out in front of the school instead of in the locker room?
Originally Posted By ecdc >>So, I think especially with post #1, you are correct to a large degree.<< Thanks. I honestly didn't start this as a Christian-bashing thread. I think the people I'm referring to in post 1 are probably a minority. A vocal, powerful minority, but a minority nonetheless. Which is why I'm surprised at the turn this thread took early on. It seems to me that reasonable Christian Americans would want these people called out the most. It's in their best interests to align with minority faiths and non-believers to put a stop to this kind of nonsense, because if one group can do it, then another can. Don't always assume that you'll be in the majority and you're way will fly. I think over the next few years, white politicians in Arizona are really going to learn that the hard way.
