Originally Posted By ecdc >>So ecdc...you have no problem with 50 young men and coaches saying a prayer in preparation for the big game...so long as they do it in the street out in front of the school instead of in the locker room?<< Exactly right. I know that seems silly, but that's the reasonable approach. Because what about kid 51 and kid 52 that isn't comfortable praying and doesn't want to? They have a choice, where they don't in the locker room. It's so easy for the majority to just say, "Aw, it's no big deal, just go along." But those kids are going to feel unwelcome and that their concerns aren't important. How would you feel if you were asked to compromise your beliefs? You'd put up a fight, given your posts about the importance of God in your life, but you're asking these kids not to. You're essentially saying, "Well, since you don't believe in anything, your beliefs aren't important like mine so just go ahead and do it." And then if they do stand up, their outsiderness going to manifest itself in other ways. They might not get as much playing time. They might not be invited to the other kid's party. Do not underestimate how it feels to not be part of the group because of your beliefs or who you are. It's not just as simple as "sucking it up for the 60 seconds of the prayer." It's much, much larger than that.
Originally Posted By ecdc I'll add, I really don't care if those 50 pray in the locker room, so long as measures are taken to make kid 51 and 52 feel like they can step outside, no questions asked or repercussions. The rub, of course is, no one can guarantee that. The coach can be the nicest, most genuine guy in the world. But what if the popular kid on the team is incensed that these two guys just won't pray? Best to avoid it altogether. Arranging to pray beforehand isn't asking too much.
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> What is religion really all about? Since you must know << I'm not quite so arrogant as to "define" something as slippery as religion and faith, but I have a pretty solid foundation on the fundamentals of christianity in particular. The teachings of christ would be primarily focused on humbleness and humility, on concern for the well being of others, on self awareness and growth, of generosity and compassion, and the "golden rule". God is love. I don't see any of these reflected in modern day american christianity. What I see instead is pride and hubris, judgement, and using their faith as weird justification for doing and believing anything they want - including much that runs directly counter to the teachings of Christ himself. And they don't care one whit.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I don't see any of these reflected in modern day american christianity.<< You don't? There are examples of it all the time. Look at the response to the disaster in Haiti, the flooding in Tennessee, much of it from Christian organizations. Are there examples of Christians acting opposite the teachings of Christ? Boy howdy. But to say that you see no examples of it today means you are looking the other way when it shows up because it upsets the narrative to which you subscribe.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan <a href="http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2010/may/05/help-tennessee-flood-victims/" target="_blank">http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2...victims/</a>
Originally Posted By wahooskipper The Catholic Church...and Christian denominations in general, are some of the most prolific charitable organizations in the world. If that isn't about love...I don't know what is.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 < Agreed. I don't pray, but I'm not about to tell people how to pray or how they should worship. That's why I think it's a two-way street. Pray to get world peace, pray to win the big game, pray to a snake, for all I care. Just do it in your home, church, or head where it belongs and not in my kid's school, my work, my town hall, etc. I'm at a loss as to why that's so hard. I certainly don't go to the town hall or the school and tell everyone not to believe in God.> Great post.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Is me praying out loud telling you to believe in God? When I'm at a stadium and I hear people cheering for the other team...I don't start cheering for the other team.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Is me praying out loud telling you to believe in God?> In the school context, it's absolutely a form of pressure to believe, or pretend that you do. There's a place for praying out loud. It's called church. Also, the home, if you choose to do it there. Also, a religious school, if you choose to send your children there. A public school? Not the place. Even if it's nominally 100% one denomination (which is becoming less and less common), there are plenty of kids who are nominally of that denomination who are actually doubting their faith or have decided to convert to another or to no faith at all. Organized, out-loud prayer forces kids to either be in the dominant group or be an outsider; an unfair demand to make in a school setting.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Is me praying out loud telling you to believe in God? When I'm at a stadium and I hear people cheering for the other team...I don't start cheering for the other team.<< Nope. Pray out loud wherever you like - restaurant, game, etc. Just don't wonder why I think you're a freak. And don't tell me I have to join in. And don't get everyone else to pray and then cock your eye at me when I don't join in, like there's something wrong with me. I get that it's a gray area, too. If ten kids decide to go in the corner of the locker room and pray, is it an infringement on separation of church and state? I doubt you could make that case, and I wouldn't want to try. How about if the coach is involved? Trickier. But at some point if something is an organized, state sponsored event and there's pressure to pray, that's a problem. Wahoo, you're a reasonable fellow - am I really to believe it's just outrageous to ask people to keep their worship in their home or church?
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I don't believe I have ever once even insinuated that I want someone here in LP...or out in the real world...to believe in God. Believe, don't believe, it's of no consequence to me. At the same time...if it is THAT important that we ask people not to express their religion in public then I think we most definitely should be making smoking in public illegal. THAT has a much greater adverse effect on me and my health than someone praying in front of me.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Smoking is banned in many public places. We do that for one reason (health). We disallow organized prayer in public school for different reasons. And I'm JUST talking about schools here. People "express their religion in public" all the time - like the man this morning on the subway passing out Jehovah's Witness pamphlets, or the guy on the street corner shouting at people to repent.
Originally Posted By ecdc Exactly right, Dabob. I've said keep religion at home and church, but obviously people have a right to proselytize, preach on the street corner, etc. I've got no beef with that - I can choose to ignore that if I want. But the people who would defend that and insist it's harmless, will usually be the same people complaining about the Atheist bus ads and billboards at Christmas. The first is freedom of religion and American greatness in action, the second is "tacky" and "insensitive."
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>The first is freedom of religion and American greatness in action, the second is "tacky" and "insensitive."<< Then there are those of us who see both as examples of jerky, off-putting behavior. I like Robert Stack in "Airplane!" -- going through the line of people wanting to hand him pamphlets and literature and punching them in the face, one after another. Athiests, religious zealots, the whole shebang. Don't you ever just feel like that after awhile? I know I do. I need to go watch that scene to decompress.
Originally Posted By Princessjenn5795 "I think it says somewhere in the Bible that if two or more people are gathered in prayer then the prayers are that much more powerful...or something like that. Anyway, it could be why people want to have prayer groups. Plus, it's just comforting to share your beliefs/joys/interests with other people." The bible also says this: Matthew, chapter 5 5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 9"This, then, is how you should pray: " 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. 11Give us today our daily bread. 12Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.[a]' 14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. Making a big fuss about praying does not make you a "good Christian". Prayer in class is not necessary; those who wish to pray to any god can do so, it does not even have to be out loud. I also think that if students want to get together before or after school to pray they should be able to, as long as students of every religion are afforded the same opportunity. But because this is not a theocracy, students should not have to sit in class while their teachers pray to a god they do not believe in. Teachers are there to teach, not to preach.
Originally Posted By Labuda "The Catholic Church...and Christian denominations in general, are some of the most prolific charitable organizations in the world. If that isn't about love...I don't know what is." I am not for a moment going to argue that Christians do a lot of good. What I am going to argue, though, is their reasons for doing so. Some do it as a way of showing they care for other people, sure, but I expect some are doing it as a sort of penance for other things they've done in their life that they now want to make up for and want to "cover their asses" in the God department.
Originally Posted By barboy2 ///some are doing it("good deeds") as a sort of penance for other things they've done in their life that they now want to make up for and want to "cover their asses" in the God department./// ----sounds terribly Catholic-like to me but nothing like mainstream protestantism. Catholics concern themselves with works/deeds/actions/rituals to gain salvation while protestants hold that faith alone is sufficient grounds to enter heaven.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I am often dumbstruck by the difference between the teachings of Christ in the Bible and the political positions some folks on the right adhere to that seem totally opposite those teachings*** Having followed on FB an old friend who is now the hardest of hardcore fundies, along with all the responses of his fundie friends (and his pastor), I can tell you that the hoops they jump through to bring themselves to these conclusions are amazingly complex. It's practically a full time job, the way they comb through the bible in search of little bits and quotes to justify their opinions, and when that doesn't work they simply claim "what was written here has been misunderstood" to justify whatever they want. And I do mean ANYTHING. Recently they went on a rant about slavery, and how when God approves of it that makes it okay (something about lowly humans and how without God's grace slavery is all we deserve or some such crap). And of course, being Glenn Beck zealots as well, they are now busy inventing reasons why the bible and Jesus are both firmly opposed to "Social Justice".
Originally Posted By Labuda "----sounds terribly Catholic-like to me but nothing like mainstream protestantism. Catholics concern themselves with works/deeds/actions/rituals to gain salvation while protestants hold that faith alone is sufficient grounds to enter heaven." Ah, ok. Thanks for the information, barboy. I honestly had no idea that that was a Catholic-specific way of thinking.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Ah, ok. Thanks for the information, barboy. I honestly had no idea that that was a Catholic-specific way of thinking. << "Faith Alone" is one of two pillars of the Reformation. Just ask Martin Luther.
