Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Can't you see the difference?<< It's only a difference of degrees. We pay taxes. Taxes go to the war effort. If you're against the war effort, you still wind up supporting it financially. Heck, just going about your business and contributing to being a productive member of society and not being an anarchist means you are supporting what used to be called "the establishment.' Can't you see the similarities?
Originally Posted By gadzuux For better or worse, we HAVE to pay our taxes. People don't have to contribute to the church. Especially in light of these multi-million dollar settlements they've been paying out for over - oh twenty years now. Why would someone want to contribute to the defense of child abuse?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***We pay taxes*** Come on, K2M. That's hardly by choice. Heck, I STILL have to pay taxes and I haven't lived in the U.S. for nearly 10 years now! (and if you try to obtain a foreign citizenship they can also hit you with a hefty "exit tax" which not everyone can necessarily afford, even assuming you can FIND another country that will accept your application for citizenship...it's not an easy thing to do.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Can't you see the similarities?*** Sorry, no. In this case, I think your argument falls flat.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Why would someone want to contribute to the defense of child abuse?*** I read somewhere that whenever these scandals arise, donations actually INCREASE significantly. Ugh.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>For better or worse, we HAVE to pay our taxes.<< No, we're free to leave the country. I mean, isn't that just an extension of the same logic? I know it isn't the same thing. But if everyone associated with an organization is complicit, guilt by association, then the same must be said of every American when it comes to our national policies and wars and scandals. Right? This is why I think it's a slippery slope to start getting on the rank and file Catholic as if it's all their fault. It isn't like people joined the church to promote child abuse. This is something that happened without the knowledge of most members of the church. The scandal is also the cover-up, the misuse of members' funds to pay hush money to victims, intentionally moving pedophile priests to other areas rather than turning them over to the law. This is not something most members of the church would have been in favor of, had they even had a say in it.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***No, we're free to leave the country*** As I explained, that's not necessarily true. And if you're against "supporting" the government, even leaving won't get you off the hook (as I mentioned). ***I mean, isn't that just an extension of the same logic?*** I really don't think so. Perhaps you could equate leaving a church with abandoning friends (or perhaps even family...which certainly WOULD be tough for most people), but the country analogy falls flat. It's not the same thing. Oh, and if you look at it a little deeper you do find that when particular countries DO become horrifically corrupted, people DO leave in droves (despite the hardships and difficulties of becoming a refuge). Just sayin......
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>In this case, I think your argument falls flat.<< I don't believe that "everyone" is complicit just because they are Americans. I'm just following the logic that every Catholic is somehow complicit in these crimes because they put money in the collection plate on Sunday. People can love their country, warts and all, because they see in the bigger picture it does more good than harm. They may hate the party in charge or its policies, but they still believe in the basic principles of the Constitution and the nation. Similarly, people in a particular religion can see it the same way. They may hate what "management" has done, but still believe in the practices of the faith itself. I do agree that more church members should organize protests and other acts of civil disobedience to make sure those involved in these crimes face the law. no argument there.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I'm just following the logic that every Catholic is somehow complicit in these crimes because they put money in the collection plate on Sunday*** You don't think that financially assisting these criminals is a bad idea? Like I said, this is more akin to someone horrified by the Bush policies and yet continuing to donate directly TO HIM (not even to his opponents, or to the RNC in general which I would equate in this case to regular, charitable giving).
Originally Posted By Mr X ***because they see in the bigger picture it does more good than harm*** That would be assuming you truly believe the Catholic Church does more good than harm. I do not.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Like I said, this is more akin to someone horrified by the Bush policies and yet continuing to donate directly TO HIM (not even to his opponents, or to the RNC in general which I would equate in this case to regular, charitable giving).<< No, it's more like being horrified by Bush and donating to the RNC. People aren't giving money (knowingly anyway) directly to pedophile priests.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>That would be assuming you truly believe the Catholic Church does more good than harm.<< Well, that's a whole different discussion, and your mind is made up on that, so there's no point going there really.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***No, it's more like being horrified by Bush and donating to the RNC. People aren't giving money (knowingly anyway) directly to pedophile priests*** I am FAR more outraged by the actions and policies of the Church officials (all the way to the TOP!) than I am by what some mentally deranged pedophiles did. That is not to say I don't find pedophilia to be abhorrent, but only to say that if they'd been reported instead of sheltered, and turned over for prosecution, this situation would have been far, FAR less damaging overall. So yes, I stand by my contention that the money donated goes DIRECTLY to the evil doers.
