Originally Posted By wahooskipper I have no interest in abusing my employer because my employer does not abuse me. As a result, I'm also more lenient with my staff and I show flexibilty as much as I possibly can. Every work environment is different.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>As a result, I'm also more lenient with my staff and I show flexibilty as much as I possibly can.<< Ditto. I'm under no illusions about why my employees are there. They work so they can have income and live in the real world. If I can help them with that a little bit and be flexible to what's happening outside the workplace, I consider it a day well spent. The American protestant work tradition almost certainly guarantees we spend more time with our co-workers than our families. It's a completely backwards, warped way of doing things. I'm not about to teach my children that their lives aren't their own and that they're to be beholden to other peoples' schedules, demands, and wants.
Originally Posted By velo the school that my youngest attends has asked that if parents pull kids out to go on vacation (outside of normal breaks/holidays) that they "consider" paying the ADA rate that the school forfeits by the child not being there. Works out to about $60+ per day. It's something we're considering if/when we go away at the end of the month (older kids are out of school, but younger one isn't).
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones Fine, but if you want to take an extra week off, a day off here and there, don't be surprised if your teacher, professor or employer remembers that when it comes time to assign a grade or grant a promotion.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Fine, but if you want to take an extra week off, a day off here and there, don't be surprised if your teacher, professor or employer remembers that when it comes time to assign a grade or grant a promotion.<< But that's exactly the problem. Why should I or my children be beholden to them. If I get the work done and do so skillfully, what's the problem? It's this added expectation of "loyalty" or "commitment" that employers (and also in some cases, schools) hoist on people to further dominate and control them. My kids are excellent students. We take a very active interest in their learning. So what's the problem? The problem is that there's people in the world who think, "But you're just not supposed to do that!" and so they think they have a right to have a say in how I raise my children and how their education goes. It's not all that different than work. I understand that all employers are different, and there's different work environments. But at mine, if I get my work done and I ensure there's support for my team while I'm out, it shouldn't be an issue. Period. And for some people, it's not. But there's always those that seem to want to judge you based on your "commitment" level rather than your productivity and actual ability to perform the job. That's a problem. It's also not a two-way street. I like my employer. I feel lucky to work for a profitable company in an economic recession. But why should I show loyalty to an employer that cannot and should not show me loyalty back? If they decided tomorrow the best business decision they could make would be to lay me off, loyalty would play no part in it. I'd be gone in a heartbeat. I understand that as part of my employment and accept it. If I had a problem with it, I'd go elsewhere. But people act as if it's so shocking that I'm not so loyal to my employer that I practically want their name tattooed across my forehead. We have a very unbalanced, unhealthy worker/employer relationship in this country. People need jobs and so they tolerate almost anything just to be able to get that paycheck. It's disgusting, and most un-American.
Originally Posted By mele Wow, a teacher who vindictively gives a lower grade to a student because they took a vacation really should consider a different career.
Originally Posted By DAR <<It's this added expectation of "loyalty" or "commitment" that employers (and also in some cases, schools) hoist on people to further dominate and control them. My kids are excellent students. We take a very active interest in their learning. So what's the problem? The problem is that there's people in the world who think, "But you're just not supposed to do that!" and so they think they have a right to have a say in how I raise my children and how their education goes.>> Again my issue is not getting the kids back when classes start up again after having an extended break.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost Getting back to the subject of Obama...the way the thread was titled sounds like you are telling Obama that he isn't allowed any rest time for possibly 8 years. No president ever gets a responsibility free vacation. They are always on call, 24/7. In today's world of communication if he is in Washington or Hawaii or any other place in the world, he is still "on duty". That's the reality of the job. Now back to the secondary part of the thread...taking kids out of school. I once planned a trip to Virginia Beach and we asked the school to let my oldest daughter take her final early in the morning instead of late in the morning so we could get on our way. (last day of school) They had another class scheduled to take the same exam earlier so it wouldn't have been any problem, but they refused, threatening to fail her if we up and left early. Bare in mind that she was a member of the National Honor Society and had a straight A average. No flexibility at all. The part that upset me, besides usurping my authority over my children was that fact that they were willing to punish them for something that my child might not have any control over and that would be my decision to take them out. I understand their concern but the problem with today's school administrators is that they have no ability to think outside of the box. Everything is black and white and they quite often show the students that adults are not very clever or do not possess any common sense at all. And then they wonder why they get no respect.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Would your child have been punished if they called in sick on that day or would they have made other arrangements to take the final?
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Again my issue is not getting the kids back when classes start up again after having an extended break.<< I understand that. Teaching's a tough job, it's underpaid, and it's often thankless, despite it's importance. We pay lip service to our teachers then send all the money to private business so incompetent CEO's and middle managers can get giant bonuses. But Goofy is right - educators rarely think outside the box. Did a student just not show up after a vacation? I can see how irritating that would be. Or did they make arrangements with the teacher? Did they have a parent in the armed forces who they were only going to get a limited amount of time with over the holiday? Each situation is different, and I don't think it's fair to paint with a broad brush about how anyone who isn't in school after a holiday vacation is somehow slacking. There's multiple possibilities, and it's possible it was handled responsibly.
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones "Would your child have been punished if they called in sick on that day or would they have made other arrangements to take the final?" In general a final can be rescheduled with a doctor's note or a documented death in the family. That has been my experience, though that school may be different. "I once planned a trip to Virginia Beach and we asked the school to let my oldest daughter take her final early in the morning instead of late in the morning so we could get on our way. (last day of school) They had another class scheduled to take the same exam earlier so it wouldn't have been any problem, but they refused, threatening to fail her if we up and left early." Bravo to the instructor for not giving in to a parent. Think of school as a commitment. You are expected to attend all classes. You are expected to be in a certain place for the final exam. It's all about self-discipline. It's about not crying over not getting your way. "usurping my authority over my children" Better get used to it now because when they enter the job market you won't be able to fight for them anymore. "We have a very unbalanced, unhealthy worker/employer relationship in this country. People need jobs and so they tolerate almost anything just to be able to get that paycheck." If not being able to take off work whenever you feel like it is a problem with the worker/employer relationship in this country, I fear for our future. "It's not all that different than work. I understand that all employers are different, and there's different work environments. But at mine, if I get my work done and I ensure there's support for my team while I'm out, it shouldn't be an issue." That's great that you found a job where you were able to negotiate terms in your favor. You've apparently earned that. I hope that everybody who works hard can enjoy such benefits. But not everybody is able to or should enjoy those benefits. Not everybody has earned that yet. If a place like Disneyland schedules you for a shift two weeks in advance and you tell them, "Sorry, can't work that shift, I need more vacation time." that goes on your record. Disney will only put up with it for so long because of the training costs associated with hiring another idiot, but will eventually sack an employee if they pull those antics regularly even if they are otherwise an exemplary cast member. "People need jobs and so they tolerate almost anything just to be able to get that paycheck." We have mountains of regulations that are supposed to protect workers. We have unions that workers at some companies are forced to pay dues to (as I have experienced in the past) that are supposed to stand up for them. We have minimum wage laws, anti-discrimination laws, anti-harassment laws, OSHA, pregnancy leave, Social Security, time off for voting and more. Is it too much to ask that people be at work when vacation is over and not feign illness so that they can spend an extra day riding the Teacups?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I hate the negative attitude about taking kids out of school, in the Uk, it is actually against the law without written consent, but I think this is sooooo wrong. Children grow up soooo fast, and we have little time as families to enjoy each other. Also, I know my kids learn far more as I have taken then around the globe and exposed them to different experiences than they ever would in the class room. We are born, we grow up, work our butts off and die. Family vacations give us something to remember when our elders are gone. Or inspire us to do something different. Some families have little to no choice as they cannot afford school vacation rates (flights to the US while kids are in school - $450, during vacation time $900 - then multiply by four. This is wrong. I beleive we should have year round schooling with flexible approaches to leave. And as a senior manager, the amount of time productivity is poor during the holidays is laughable. I think Obama is right to do this, and he has my full support.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Bravo to the instructor for not giving in to a parent. Think of school as a commitment. You are expected to attend all classes. You are expected to be in a certain place for the final exam. It's all about self-discipline. It's about not crying over not getting your way.<< This is entirely wrong-headed. Missing one class by an honor roll student does not equal lack of commitment. Obviously this student has shown plenty of self-discipline. What it's really about is taking control of one's own life and living it on one's own terms, rather than letting all external forces dictate it for you. Our lives are very frequently not our own. We're owned by family, by school, and by work. I don't think it's too much to ask for a day off. Granted, a final might be different than just missing a day. But most professors are lazy. They reuse the same exams year after year. Giving the final early to someone who wasn't going to be there isn't all that tough. Trust me, I have many friends who are college professors. And while they're disturbed by the rising trend of students skipping class, they also get there's legitimate things and will accommodate when necessary.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Thanks, Dave. I agree completely. Back in the mid-sixties, my family had the opportunity to see the NYWF, on our way home from visiting my mom's relatives on the east coast. It would have meant missing the first day of the new school year, to push back the return trip home, and my parents refused to do it. Being a die hard Disney fan, I desperately wanted to see the Fair, and was so bummed to have been so close, being a SoCal resident at the time. And it wasn't like my sister and I were going to miss out on important lessons and such. Showing up on the second day would have been no big deal, especially since we were A students who routinely missed class because of head colds and sinus infections, etc. Seeing the NYWF would have been a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for our family. I really hated my parents for insisting that school was always more important than anything else the world had to offer for learning opportunities, which is pure BS. Probably why I got an M.A. in Education, just to prove them wrong.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Better get used to it now because when they enter the job market you won't be able to fight for them anymore.<< The lesson to children that they are in charge of their own lives is a much better one than, "Just do whatever your teacher says cause someday you'll have to do whatever your employer says." I can't imagine living life in such a defeated manner. >>If not being able to take off work whenever you feel like it is a problem with the worker/employer relationship in this country, I fear for our future.<< Who said anything about whenever they like? This isn't a black and white issue, much as you'd like to portray it as one. I get that too many people miss school without working it out with their teacher. I get that employees are lazy and work harder to get out of work than they do at actually working. I manage a few of them everyday. But yielding control over one's life and one's schedule entirely to a school or an employer is no way to live. Accommodations can be made, compromises reach. Not everyone is out to fleece their boss and not everyone is out to get out of school because they're lazy.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Is it too much to ask that people be at work when vacation is over and not feign illness so that they can spend an extra day riding the Teacups?<< You're moving the goalposts. We're not talking about not showing up when a vacation is over unannounced. We're talking about making arrangements for an extra day or an exception due to family commitments. You said that was unreasonable to ask for when given a specific example. Now you're painting an excellent student as lazy, crying, and un-disciplined. It's a ridiculous broad brush. The larger issue is the image of commitment over productivity. That's what too many employers do, and you endorsed it by saying you might not get a promotion or a good grade. That's extremely disturbing.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo ecdc - I agree. Ever notices how quiet LP gets when it is not a work day? Bet those posters are in on time and leave on time? What is the greater value? Personally I want my kids to be able to think for themselves and lead rather than follow.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>Better get used to it now because when they enter the job market you won't be able to fight for them anymore.<<< Seriously, you think that taking an exam 2 hours early will destroy the child? I wasn't even asking for "real" time off for her, just adjusted time. There is a big difference to most people. Besides, they are all grown up have jobs, raising families and are socially and fiscally responsible and well adjusted. I shudder to think how far into the crapper their lives would now be if the educators hadn't put their collective foot down and prevented me from making them entitled. Woo..that was a close one. >>>"Would your child have been punished if they called in sick on that day or would they have made other arrangements to take the final?"<<< Well, she wasn't sick and I foolishly wouldn't have wanted to lie to get her out early. I just thought that since she had been a model student and worked hard, she was certainly in position to have a little slack cut for her. This is true especially since cutting the slack would not have meant diddly to anyone either in extra effort or scheduling. As stated, life is not black and white, educators should, in special cases allow for the needs of families. That said, I'm not sure that taking them out for extended periods of time to go to WDW or any other place is totally justified.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Ok, here is a question. I want to take to my family to tour Japan. We want to go for 4 weeks ideally. Where do you think they would learn more, in a class room where they are modified by the group, or touring Japan where they will be subject to a lot of very new experiences covering currency conversions, culture, history, language, international affairs, and maybe a little fun at TDL and TDS? Most of what has shaped me has been more of having a wordly experience and less than the class room. My degree means little, but the experiences that shaped me are who I am.
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones "We're talking about making arrangements for an extra day or an exception due to family commitments." And when they say no? "No extra vacation time. We need you here." Then what? Complain? Jump up and down? Whine? If your teacher or employers says yes, great. You are free to do whatever you want as long as it's not illegal. Schools and employers are free to react in kind.
