Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I think that is the real issue. Disney isn't really tackling dreams.>> I really want to make some puns here with the new boat and Disney's use of this word to the point it has no meaning whatsoever, but that is such a true statement that I don't want to take away from it by being pithy. <<Even with the Fantasyland makeover it sure doesn't look like they are pushing the envelope of theme park design/build with the attractions. They look good on paper...but they certainly aren't visionary.>> Not only do I agree, I'd go so far as to say they don't even look good on paper. When I look at most of the artwork for projects today, it doesn't get me excited because it's obvious that the talent isn't what it was. These renderings of F-land don't excite me in a way Herb Ryman's work on EPCOT did, for example. There's a lack of depth in much of the art and at least it's truth in advertising as the projects generally underwhelm. The last art that got me psyched about WDW was for Forbidden Mountain and that was at least attempting to be a real E-Ticket. <<Test Track, like it or not, was visionary in the sense that it was something untried and...well...untested. Of course, they took a lot of grief over the fact that it took a couple of years to get the kinks worked out. Mission: Space was pretty visionary too.>> The ride systems were visionary ... well, pushing the bar. But that's really all they did. TT all you get is a ride system. Now at TDS they take that ride system and build an amazing Journey to the Center of the Earth with it, an experience that had me as giddy as a fanboi meeting Tony Baxter. <<Aladdin's Carpet Ride? Not so visionary. Iago in the Tiki Room, not so much. From that perspective, I understand the point of view.>> If you mean crap by not so visionary, then I agree!
Originally Posted By avimagine See though I don't see this as just a Disney problem. It seems pretty much every corporation this day has maximum profits / minimum expenditure as an artform. Until companies make a conscience effort to be fairer to the consumers (Really once you make mega profits, do you really need more? Ok I know the correct business answer is yes) However there will be a point when you'll lose market due to lousy quality. However a lot of Companies have massive goodwill. Think about what we equate Disney = High quality animation and squeaky clean family values. Sony = The best technology defacto standard (Who cares is the Kuro is better?!) Toyota = Imppecible reliability and quality. Look Disney is not alone. I bought an 2008 Toyota, it had hard plastics, it didn't have that Toyota feeling. You know what's sad I drive a Chrysler product now. Where my Toyota had a small LCD, the Chrysler has a large one, where my Toyota had hard touch Fisherprice plastics (Touch the dash on a Sienna, Camry etc today and compare it to that 1997 Camry what a beautiful machine in comparison). My Jeep's dash feels squishy just like that 1997 Camry. The Highlander didn't. Yes we have better technology today, but well we don't have the same assembly (Ie Ride Quality) nor do we have the same variety. How many different small performances were there in Epcot in the 80s, versus today? How many more different type of meals could you get at Le Celier compared to now?
Originally Posted By avimagine The thing is it will take a lot of time for the general populace to change their opinions on a lot of these. WDW is still the "Ultimate Family Amusement Park" But really compare an old Trinitron to the Zenith of the Day. Now compare a Bravia to a Viera. Uh sorry but the Viera kicks its tush. But how many people will buy Sony, just because it's Sony without taking a look at anything else?
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 I see a lot of comments on the buses (not surprisingly) and they definitely have added greatly to the Walmarting of WDW. If you want to understand the greedy mindset of Burbank and TDO, then look no further than the lack of monorail expansion and other alternate forms of transport. And it will only get worse. New Animation Resort will be connected by more buses. I am amazed that WDW will compare the GF to a Ritz Carlton or Four Seasons and then have those guests stand on crowded buses with theme park BO-filled guests to get from place to place (beyond MK or EPCOT). I've stayed at those type of hotels and I can assure their typical guest would NEVER put up with something like that. Transportation never should have gotten this bad, but they have ignored it ... first when they decided to delay monorail expansion to Disney-MGM and the Epcot resorts in the early 90s and again when a 1999-2000ish expansion plan died when the 01 recession and 9/11 hit. And even now, with regular accidents, Disney still thinks buses are the way to go. Cutting edge ... ... if you're say Cleveland in 1987.
Originally Posted By Mr X Given the distances involved, I wonder if it would be feasible to have just ONE new monorail line which serves to connect ALL of the parks. I've seen the proposed MGM spur, and it seems to me that could, if expanded, serve to connect all of the Epcot resorts to MGM and the Magic Kingdom without significant delay, and even beyond to Animal Kingdom and AKL from MGM seems a possibility to me based on the layout. Does this make sense? The monorail could leave Epcot near the international gateway and stop nearby to serve the Epcot resorts (one way going towards the Magic Kingdom, the other way out to MGM and beyond). The train then continues on behind Yacht and Beach and the Dolphin, over to MGM. Continues behind MGM to the Animal Kingdom. Continues to the AKL to pick up Epcot bound passengers, and then on back behind the Boardwalk to stop at that connecting station (much like how the beams come close together in the front of Epcot), and reconnect with the old network back into the other half of the loop around the park and to the station in front of Epcot. The longest journey would be Magic Kingdom to Animal Kingdom (and vice versa), but with only one connection, I think even that journey would be well under 30 minutes (er, well, except for traffic clearance urp).
Originally Posted By avimagine Let me expand on LRT, first off places on Earth still run Street Cars without dedicated rights of way (Toronto for one). The cost of implimenting can be much less then monorails. They could go two directions, They can use something that looks like a "Eurorunner" scaled down Japanese "Bullet Train" maybe like the Tokyo Monorail with "Mickey Mouse" style windows. Or they could go retro with PCC style double ended street cars. These would increase capacity over the buses (They hold more then articulated buses), can be more environmentally friendly and generally safer. As well since it's on Park property they could even commission a widebody version for more passenger comfort (which I'm sure would turn into cramming more people into them). Is it as nice as a monorail? No. But is it a better solution then buses? I think so. They could compliment these with buses running spur routes to some of the resorts or for "rush hours". They could also increase "Friendship Ferrys" across the seven seas lagoon, for some destinations. Ok maybe not hugely more environmentally friendly then buses. But somewhat more "magical". When my kid brother was younger we took the public bus once for him. Since he always saw them but rode in cars (typical suburbia family I guess). Once he rode one he was less enamored with them. (Yes going to the mall really does take 4 times longer. And yes some of the passengers are scary). Heck I'd love to see Spanish Aerocars thrown into the mix too Yes I'd love to see Peoplemovers on an Epcot (The city) scale. But I don't know about economics as well as feasibility (I don't think it's been done yet has it?!)
Originally Posted By avimagine ^ Do you think they'd contract the monorail out to Bombardier, Siemens, etc or would it be done in house?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I went for a swim, after an amazing night sleep in my 4 star marriott. It included a high quality all you can eat breakfast, free parking and a bus into York - world heritage city. Cost was $135. To say Disney buses are free is rubbish. And did I mention the bus is every 10 minutes.
Originally Posted By sjhym333 Interesting thread all around. Some observations: Disney wont give up the buses for monorails or anything else. There is no one creative at the top who sees the need to do that kind of urban planning. Disney did in fact charge for the monorails for years. It was sort of hidden but it was in print. MK tickets included a built in transportation fee (hotel guests paid it via their room rate) and EPCOT Center tickets did not. Which is why when Mr X wanted to ride the EPCOT monorail he had to purchase a transportation ticket ($3) to ride. It was also why all turnstiles at monorail stations and at TTC had CM's checking tickets. The fees from the transportation tickets went to Disney Transportation Company a subsidiary of the company. They were the group that tried to sell the monorails around the company and installed the Wedway into the Houston airport. That division was dissolved in the 80's and the decision was made to no longer collect the fees. It is one of the reasons you can walk thru the gates at TTC or any resort and hop on a monorail, boat or bus without showing a resort id or ticket media. Not to mention the fact that it saves huge labor hours. At one time there were plans to build a third monorail system from EPCOT to the Disney Village. When EPCOT was being built the bases for the pillons were actually poured into the ground inside EPCOT so that when the addition was built it would cause minimal disruption inside the park. If you look at the EPCOT monorail station (the load side) you will see that the building is flat on that side. There were plans for a second mirror station on that side. The monorails were supposed to exit between Energy and Horizon and reenter between Horizons and Motion. The track went out to the village and made three of four stops. The often quoted $1million a mile cost comes from that expansion. I heard it often when we opened EPCOT. I believe those pillon were removed during the construction of Wonders of Life and then Mission Space. The expansion of the resort so quickly during the Eisner years are one of the main causes for the large bus system. While the company was building hotels at breakneack speed there was no one person looking across the company to give a unified vision for transportation. I did sit in a meeting years ago about expansion of the monorail system out towards the Studios then AK but I believe the end result was the cost was too great. It is cheaper to buy a bus than build a system. I think everyone knows about the long term relationship of those costs...like doesn't the monorail system have a longer life, etc. Unfortunately Eisner was gun shy on pulling the trigger at the time because of the costs connected to EuroDisney and some other things. He just wouldnt buy into the idea. It was too late in his career. I think the early Disney Eisner would have done it. He was much more a creative visionary then. By the time these talks happened he was in making the instiutional stock holders happy.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***At one time there were plans to build a third monorail system from EPCOT to the Disney Village*** Hadn't heard about that one, but I did see a concept poster (which was old and faded by the time I glanced at it, not to mention cast off into a corner in a storage space somewhere deep in the bowels of WDW), which clearly indicated a line running from Epcot to MGM.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>>Now, do I think that Disney will ever exist again at say WDW? Anything is possible ... but it won't happen with Bob Iger running Disney. It just won't. At day's end, he's just a manager. A big one, but that's it.<<<< WHEN WHEN WHEN WHEN WHEN WHEN WHEN WHEN WHEN WHEN WHEN WHEN WHEN WHEN WHEN WHEN WHEN WHEN WHEN WHEN IS HE LEAVING? He's already be there for 6 years.... Right?
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>> The thing is it will take a lot of time for the general populace to change their opinions on a lot of these. WDW is still the "Ultimate Family Amusement Park"<<<< I don't believe this at all... It's already changing. People are wising up to what's going on down I-4. Potter and WWoHP are quickly eclipsing people's attention. I've seen this myself, growing up... Friends don't just have pictures of them and their families at WDW on their mantle... the WDW ones are slowly being replaced by ones of them at other resorts by IoA, Uni, even Busch. Disney isn't the paramount vacation, any more. It's the other places. Disney is still great, to the majority of these people, but it's long been loosing out to other venues and options. Sad, really.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>>***At one time there were plans to build a third monorail system from EPCOT to the Disney Village*** Hadn't heard about that one, but I did see a concept poster (which was old and faded by the time I glanced at it, not to mention cast off into a corner in a storage space somewhere deep in the bowels of WDW), which clearly indicated a line running from Epcot to MGM.<<<<< I think you are thinking about the LBV Line, which would have been a WEDWay, I THINK.
Originally Posted By Mr X I don't think so. I could be wrong, but the map I saw DEFINITELY seemed to include what looked like a spur off of the EPCOT Monorail, headed (via somewhere near the international gateway) to MGM and back. Now, that might have been an older plan than the one talked about here (to Pleasure Island), because it was a VERY old and dusty thing. But I saw what I saw, and it was a monorail to MGM.
Originally Posted By Mr X Keep in mind this was a VERY old map, I'm sure you could find conceptual designs for pretty much ANYTHING if you searched through the storerooms hard enough (I also saw a conceptual map of all seven parks at build-out...that was WAY cool).
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer ^ I've seen that one... 7 parks is insanity. And yes, it's a monorail. But there were plans for a faster WEDWay, too.
Originally Posted By Mr X Okay, I'll take your word for it. Looked like a monorail (spurred right off Epcot station, in fact) to me, but again I could be wrong. Plans for a faster WEDWay thing would also be cool and all that stuff and, BOY, is it getting sleepy in here or !? Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros "The often quoted $1million a mile cost comes from that expansion." I work on a lot of rail projects, and I can say that Disney would be pretty lucky to get a price like that for any sort of transportation improvements these days. It does help that they already own all the land, but development of these sorts of projects is really getting up there in price. Granted, the price per mile of a train, monorail, streetcar, or anything else is still far less than the price per mile of any other attraction that Disney would build. Looking longterm toward WDW's future, something like this needs to be done. They can only get by with what they have for so much longer, and that clock has been ticking for quite a while.
Originally Posted By Manfried Everyone always wants what they once had. It's always amazing how memory remembers the good and not the bad. But going back to the past is not the answer. Moving constructively ahead is. Be grounded in the past, but move solidly forward.
