Originally Posted By mawnck >>But when atheists are critical of religion, they're expected to offer a gazillion caveats as to how they know all the good religion does, that not everyone who's religious is crazy, etc., etc.<< You're reverting to DAR logic here. No one is expecting athiests to offer any such thing. I'm expecting - or hoping - that athiests will show sufficient self-restraint to not feel the need to bag on religion every dang time it gets mentioned. Man, this is a rerun of the fights I got into about Prop 8. No one would listen to what I was saying then either. I was even accused of changing sides!
Originally Posted By ecdc >>You're reverting to DAR logic here.<< I'm not. Promise and cross my heart. Swear to your god. Your posts generalized about all atheists. It may not have been your intent; it may have even been for brevity. I do the same thing - often referring to "conservatives" when I really mean the tea bagging types. But do that about religion around here or just about anywhere else? You're instantly told not to lump everyone together. I'd simply ask for the same courtesy. I'm not a raving lunatic. But I do have very legitimate concerns about organized religion and the direction of our country due to religious superstition. And that's the rub; if I call it what I think it is - myth or superstition - I'm instantly branded insensitive, or in this case, impolitic. You're asking atheists to play by different rules. I understand why; perhaps it is the politically smart move. But I doubt it. History's shown that people don't get attention or listened to by being polite. As I've pointed out before, it's the age-old issue. The majority, enjoying the luxury of having their way of life be the normative way of life, always wonder what the big deal is, while the minority complain and say it's unfair. Protestants did it to Catholics in the 19th century when they asked why Catholic school children just couldn't use the Protestant Bible in Protestant schools? What's the big deal, they wondered. But it was a big deal to Catholics, and they had a right to have their voices heard. (Google "Philadelphia Bible Riots" for a good time.) Same thing here. People shouldn't complain about religion every time it's brought up. Reason and sanity can prevail. But don't ask the minority to play by different rules just so they don't offend a hypersensitive majority to further their cause.
Originally Posted By DAR What this logic? I have never and will never attack anyone for their lack of religious belief on these forums. All I ask is the same in return for my religious belief
Originally Posted By mawnck >>if I call it what I think it is - myth or superstition - I'm instantly branded insensitive, or in this case, impolitic.<< Yes. Impolitic. That's the word I'm looking for. Is it worth making your point about religious superstition if it blows the entire progressive agenda right out of the water? Cause that's what it's going to do if this keeps up the way it's been going on the political and news sites I frequent. Huffington Post started a religion section not too long ago. From the comments, you'd think they'd started a kittens-and-puppies-in-an-industrial-blender-cam or something. >>But don't ask the minority to play by different rules just so they don't offend a hypersensitive majority to further their cause.<< Why not? Is telling us superstitious folks that we suck worth handing the country over to Palin? If being a persecuted athiest were the biggest problem facing your life today then I could understand it, and would back you 100%. But I'm willing to bet it isn't. You've got a country that's on the brink of financial armageddon, has a health care system that soon nobody will be able to afford, is fighting two wars, is actively taking rights away from the LGBTs, has a sizeable minority who wants to turn us into the Christian version of Iran ... and you're going to risk allowing all that to continue just to tell me and my fellow church goers what idiots we are? If so, your priorities are badly misplaced. Pick your battles.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Is it worth making your point about religious superstition if it blows the entire progressive agenda right out of the water? Cause that's what it's going to do if this keeps up the way it's been going on the political and news sites I frequent.<< I'm not convinced that's where we're headed. But I'm listening. Make the case. (That's a sincere request, BTW.) >>Huffington Post started a religion section not too long ago. From the comments, you'd think they'd started a kittens-and-puppies-in-an-industrial-blender-cam or something.<< I'm not gonna lie, I'd click on that link. Probably just the once. But I'd click. >>Why not? Is telling us superstitious folks that we suck worth handing the country over to Palin?<< Still not convinced that's where atheist outcry is taking us. Not by a long shot. And again, you're generalizing in a big way. If atheists shouldn't generalize about religious people, why is it ok the other way around? I don't think all religious people suck. I think thoughtful religious people like yourself should focus on getting your own house in order instead of worrying about atheists, though. I'm quite serious. People like you, or Dabob2, or 2oony, could do far more convincing of people on the fence than a calm, peaceful atheist movement. I'm sorry, but I really don't think you understand just how quickly people will tune out when they hear you're an atheist, no matter how polite and well-reasoned one is. >>If being a persecuted athiest were the biggest problem facing your life today then I could understand it, and would back you 100%. But I'm willing to bet it isn't.<< It's not. You're right - I do think atheists overstate the problems they face. And I agree with your final statement: pick your battles. But I'm not convinced we're headed where you say we are. And I'm not convinced it's as toxic as you say it is. I used to be as critical of Richard Dawkins as the next guy (and still think he's flawed) but then I read him and Hitchens and others. They aren't as outrageous as they're made out to be. And that's the problem: what atheists believe and think and say is one thing, and what Christians think they believe and think and say is an entirely different thing altogether. Finally, the one thing the tea baggers and extremist religionists have that the left doesn't, is passion and people willing to take to the streets. You will never beat them with polite reasoning, as the article about Obama and the right-wing you've linked to proves. You can beat them with passion and emotion, and that's what these groups are doing.
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones I thought it was funny. Personally, I don't want Playboy or the Bible. Both are overrated. You can get all your porn and crazy stories on the Internet anyway.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>If atheists shouldn't generalize about religious people, why is it ok the other way around?<< It's NOT OK the other way around. But the other way around doesn't damage their agenda like it does ours. >>I really don't think you understand just how quickly people will tune out when they hear you're an atheist, no matter how polite and well-reasoned one is.<< >>You will never beat them with polite reasoning, as the article about Obama and the right-wing you've linked to proves. You can beat them with passion and emotion, and that's what these groups are doing.<< That's the whole point! If they think progressive = angry athiest, we're all done. You can also beat *yourself* with passion and emotion. People's religions are EXTREMELY important to them. They take serious offense to being told they're fools for believing what they do. That's not just the tea baggers. That's people like me, and my dad (a pastor who insisted his church include a statement on the front of the bulletins welcoming all people, specifically including sexual preference). And President Obama. Be passionate and emotional about the more important and less divisive stuff first. Pick your battles. Don't be trading Bibles for porn. >>Cause that's what it's going to do if this keeps up the way it's been going on the political and news sites I frequent.<< Huffington Post: "Rational theism is an oxymoron - there is nothing rational about believing in a god. Sometimes the truth hurts. Belief in god is self deception. No amount of mumbling about mystery, etc. will change the facts. This article is insulting to atheists, and a rather weak and confused apology for religious superstition. Fail." "how is disbelief in your god and placing intellectual priority of reason over faith in rational discussion belittling to believers? amazing." "One group includes many who believe in stories of resurrections, 800 year old men, martyrdom, magical underpants, magical hats, white smoke, black smoke, blood and flesh consumption, animal sacrifice, an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent being who presides over a world full of death and despair, suicide bombings, prayer, flying on a horse to heaven, reincarnation, stonings, burning bushes, prophets, and holy texts, to name only a few. And every single person who is on other side does not believe in any of this crap. Who's more rational? If you said, 'the first group,' then that's exactly where you belong." "When a person suffers from delusions, it is called insanity. When a small group of people suffer from delusions, it is called a cult. When a large group of people suffer delusions, it is called a religion." "Lo, the many failings of atheists, like me; for we are sadly blind to the many virtues of those who order their lives by reference to angels, ghosts, deities, demons, etc. At least, all of us rational people (theists and atheists) can agree on one thing, and that is how we can identify those who have faith in the aforementioned supernatural entities. How do you spot a believer? He or she is "stunned, speechless, flabbergasted, and inarticulate" about existence. You know! You see this all the time on those televangelist TV shows, and such. Hold on! Wait! I'm beginning to be illuminated by faith, myself. Cool!" Fox Nation: "Yes, CHRISTIANS ARE trying to control everyone's freaking lives. Biggest bunch of whiny babies around with far too much prower. WHO changed out money by putting in GOD WE TRUST? WHO is trying to ignore the founding fathers tenet of the separation and church and states? WHO comes to my door Saturday mornings telling me I'm going to hell?" "Gee, If I don't believe in your silly religion, I deserve to be tortured for all eternity. Such a loving religion this Christianity of yours. As far as this group comparing the Bible to porn, how about stories like Genesis 19:32-36?" "As predicted This thread has drawn every atheist , trying to claim Christianity is fake. Why do they feel so compelled to attack Christianity. They certainly haven't disproved it or even offer an argument, just Christian bashing. Intolerance is a tenant of atheism, and also a key element in advancing socialism."
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder I'd like to religion and politics to stay separate, as it should be. I don't want some redneck right wing bible thumper telling me a damn thing about what's best for me politically. Leave the God sez so crap out of it. Conversely, I just don't want to hear anymore about why some smug a-hole says there is no God and my politics should therefore line up accordingly. Because like it or not, that's how I hear it. Tell me yer politics, make yer argument, but leave God or no God behind.
Originally Posted By dshyates I don't say much about it, but I believe that the religious folks of the world are going to eventually blow us off the face of the planet. I have been watching religious extremism increase around the world and with folks like Osama Been Forgotten and Eric Prince et al running around, things are just getting worse. Thus the atheists are becoming more scared. When mawnck mentions that 74% of the youth of America NOW are religious, that really doesn't make me feel better about where we are headed since in the past 15 years Fundies have increased exponentially. And I would assume that that explains the 74% thing. In America we have seen doctors being shot, gay bars and abortion clinics being bombed and church shootings increase. I don't see much difference from that and what is happening in the middle east. What we have happening here is very similar to what was happening there in the 70s and 80s. So we are a little behind the curve, but it is accelerating. I don't really see any way to reverse the trend and it is just a matter of time before people like the Bush administration get control here again with their perception of a Holy War supported by someone like Eric Prince who has no qualms about voicing his goals as a christian warrior. So I don't say much, but I think we are on the road to oblivion at the hands of the rightous. No wonder the atheists are getting hysterical.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>When mawnck mentions that 74% of the youth of America NOW are religious, that really doesn't make me feel better about where we are headed<< If it makes you feel better, it's been slowly but steadily dropping for some time. But not fast enough that you should pitch us overboard yet. >>No wonder the atheists are getting hysterical.<< No arguments from me there - on any of this. But getting hysterical doesn't do anybody any good. It's a fight for the moderates now - one that progressives are currently losing. We need to set our religions (or lack thereof) aside or it will become one more obstacle in our fight against the "forces of darkness."
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Don't be trading Bibles for porn.<< I own neither. They're both free on the Internet. Seriously, I think the Bibles for Porn stunt was bloody stupid. I don't think it means "progressives are losing the war," but I do think it was a ridiculous move. PETA-like even, and I can think of no higher insult. I'm not on board with that stuff. But blunt speaking often gets people to stop and think about what they really believe.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>So I don't say much, but I think we are on the road to oblivion at the hands of the rightous. No wonder the atheists are getting hysterical.<< Go read The Family by Jeff Sharlet and see how well you sleep at night.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 ecdc and mawnck, I have to say that I've enjoyed reading your back and forth on this, and it's a good example of two people here disagreeing profoundly, yet still writing intelligently and respecting what the other one has to say. Well done, guys.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>Dave, do you feel that way about Desmond Tutu, Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King Jr, Mohandas Gandhi, The Dalai Lama. etc? Being "religious" does not necersarily imply being a wild eyed fanatic<<< Agreed, I do admire some people of faith, though certainly not Mother T - having seen first hand her work, it was abusive, but that is for another thread. I know some wonderful people of faith. My real prob is when the whole my god is the real god thing rages, then I get upset. How does anyone know for sure? Surely we should focus on charity and good will, and if there is a heaven/reincarnation, then it's all good. I love in Europe the liberal anything goes. The if you are religious, fine, if you are not fine attitude. That people are judged on their accomplishments and contributions, not denominations or even politics.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>ecdc and mawnck, I have to say that I've enjoyed reading your back and forth on this, and it's a good example of two people here disagreeing profoundly, yet still writing intelligently and respecting what the other one has to say. Well done, guys.<<< Isn't that the reason so many of us have stuck around on LP for so long? Agreed. I would rather we religious folks, agnostics and athiests all lined up to work together to defend what we believe in - public discourse, infinate diversity in infinate combinations and a motivation to protect, support and serve all living creatures so long as it is in line with personal choice.
Originally Posted By pecos bill In light of the fact that no openly Atheist person has a chance at achieving a position in public government in America, is it any wonder, in the face of such obvious prejudice, that Atheists are becoming a bit more edgy?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo It's a great point. Despite 200+ years of Masonic lineage, I cannot join because of my theological stance, and unlikely to be able to run for the same reason. I will never forget how the donut shop in Half Moon Bay cleared out when they asked our kids if they new of a particular bible story, and my wife chimed in and said, we are "more pagan than Christian". Lol
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 Yeah, I just pictured that old "Pace picante sauce" commercial where everyone stops dead in their tracks and one guy finally says "Boys, get a rope."
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo It felt that way. I think they were looking for the kids heads' to spin around 360 degrees. And yet I've known a lot of Hippies in the Bay Area and Monterrey Area that are nature worshipers (which paganism is). Funny stuff.
