Originally Posted By dshyates I summerize my feelings about the price increase this way. I think DLR can easily justify it's price increase with all of it's neww offerings coming on line and down the road. I think Universal Orlando can easily justify it's price increases because of it's new offering recently opened and coming down the line. WDW has little new to offer, (stuff like The truncated PIXAR Patite Parade at DHS is a perfect example of Disney updating/upgrading stuff. As in significantly diminished from it's previous offering). And what little they have coming down the pike has such a narrow demo (4-8 year old little girls) that for us not Princess afflicted are left out in the cold.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 vbdad, back then you excused Disney for not building like stupid ol' Universal. And now you excuse them for raising ticket prices with no new offerings. Admittedly you do throw out minor grievences to "prove" you are not a total Pixie-Duster, but it really sounds like it to me. You should just go ahead and say "Sorry, I just really love Disney. So sue me." ---- no I just try and be realistic unlike those of you who seem to pounce on any reason to bitch. I already said I don't like it-- not excusing them but tell me who the heck else you are getting services fromt hat has not increased their proces at least once in the last 18-24 months- if not more ? C'mon - I get the whole they should build deal- but then the price increase would be more and there'd be more whining. Disney is not immune to all the increases I listed above and more. You don't think the insurance they pay for their employees cost more in 2001 than 2010 ? Really? So put away the pollyana label for anyone who talks common sense.. but I will say, sorry I have common sense and can see rality - so sue me..how's that ?
Originally Posted By vbdad55 The $52 increase is outside of inflation - and all the issues you mentioned are included in the inflation rate. Of course some things might hit Disney harder than others and not all the items in the market basket would have the same increase. But I tried to make at least a somewhat sensible comparison. --- yes you did and I appreciate that fat- but I can tell you from spread sheets I review- corporate inflation rate is significantly above what is being thrown out there by the current admin and finance team. but hey what do I know-I've got pixie dust for brains I read.. ( not from you) - the more employee overhead you have the higher the inflation rate has hit you - and being self insured that is significant.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 2011 than 2010 -- for above. Corporaqte cost for employee health care rose 15% YTY for many corps I know- and that is 1 factor in inflation affects on expense - just one.
Originally Posted By fkurucz ^^^True, of course many employers are pushing their employees into crappy High Deductible plans.
Originally Posted By Bolna <<--- yes you did and I appreciate that fat- but I can tell you from spread sheets I review- corporate inflation rate is significantly above what is being thrown out there by the current admin and finance team. but hey what do I know-I've got pixie dust for brains I read.. ( not from you) - the more employee overhead you have the higher the inflation rate has hit you - and being self insured that is significant>> Ah, see, that is interesting information! I understand that it all depends on the basket you are looking at. And the consumer basket most likely varies a lot from the corporate basket since both have different expenditures. But aren't those single very high increases also offset (at least to some degree) by decreases in other areas? I guess the really interesting comparison would be against all kind of other entertainment offerings, looking at real historic prices. But that's a bit too much research effort for my taste...
Originally Posted By ChiMike I want to break out from my lurking to opine on this thread. Between the absurdity of the comments on the disneyparks blog, and the excellent points raised by Dsyhates and VBDad, I want to chirp a bit... I am really happy to see these price increases. I only wish the DL APs were raised higher. Those AP prices are still under the level where some in the DL community wanted them to be 8-10 years ago when the crowding problem became unreasonable. I would also like to see Disney stop offering discounts to their captured audience in DVC membership. No reason to discount those folks either. They're locked-in! Personally, it's a dual issue to me. I have two opposing views on this: 1) As VBDad said, costs are up across the board. Disney has needed to get their repeat guests off of a theoretical $5-$30 a day visit for a while. The macroeconomic conditions have slowed down this initiative. The inevitable was put off for far too long. I am glad to see them act aggressively on this over the last year. I do wish the 1-2 day options were cheaper to help encourage a shift back to more modest visits by the guests. Never will happen though. It's a case of right hand/left hand. The right hand of the company has sold a DVC lifestyle for the last decade to many loyal guests. Where the Orlando property is sold as a "vacation home". Well, the left hand can't run a theme park empire on the low margins of customers who want the property to be a second-home. Same with the DL APers.. Crowding at both resorts is still substantial, costs are up, so raise the price! This is simple economics, it works. On the flip side, 2) You won't find me at WDW, wouldn't have for the last six years. Valuerice is way out of whack for me. Since 2001 it has been mostly Universal and Disneyland all the way for me. I can't imagine folks still pay what they do for what is, imo, a substandard park experience compared to years past and other contemporary offerings. Only until people stop coming will you see any slow down in the continual price increases in conjunction with ongoing lackluster additions, amenity removals, shorter park hours, less custodial and guest service positions, lack of upkeep at resorts, worse dining, etc. etc. But, hey, guests will have fancy bracelets and a neat Disney Internet site. The comments on the disneyparks blog and other sites border on the absurd. Visiting a commercial business is not an entitlement. If you can't swing a price increase on their most expensive AP ticket price, maybe it's time to go back to the good old days of visiting 2 days every other year. Gotta love Disney, for years, market to folks insisting that people need to hit everything that is offered at the resort, market to folks insisting that people come back year after year to participate in their NEWEST=BEST additions, market to folks insisting that one would be remiss for not participating in DVC as an OWNER of a vacation HOME. ...And then, once that sales cycle is complete, once the consumer has been conditioned after years of marketing to behave the way the Disney Co. wants them to, start reducing quality of the parks themselves while raising prices. Genius. They have people publicly, on their own website now, expressing frustration while talking about their next visit. I'm a broken record no doubt, but I will say again that this whole mess will continue to catch up to Disney and further compel them to reduce their operational costs when they are finished milking the current set of customers dry.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>If it's $50 per person for a family of four, that is not as much.<<< But it's still 200 BUCKS. They have to find that somewhere. For me, that's almost two nights in a hotel. Definite deal breaker.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 But aren't those single very high increases also offset (at least to some degree) by decreases in other areas? --- if we took it line item by line item yes there will be some both ways, but likely none as huge a hit as the personnel costs. For almost any business it's people costs are the 600 pound gorilla line item remember also that fuel costs / food costs / energy costs - clothing costs etc-- most of the biggest hitters for us also hit them due to being in the theme park/ entertainment business. A copr that deals in software for instance misses some of those like food and cloting - but Disney dies not. I do not have access to their balance sheets but one person here does. Leemac could probably shed some light on what the inflationary factor for Disney is- but I'd be willing to bet it outstrips the national average in multiples.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 Chi-Mike-- good to hear from ya...and you know I am an avid DVC supporter, and have been for 20 years. But you're absolutely right in that when the sales cycle stops and it's only maintenance monies coming in, it stops being the windfall it is today. I would not be happy about giving up my AP discount but would accept it if used properly - or needed to maintain the quality level of DVC today. Those of us who have invested should demand quality in return - and not count pennies...so no argument from me here. Also what needs to go immediately is free dining - it is to Disney what rebates and cheap leases were to the auto industry..it changes deliverables and expectations, and not in a good way -- stop it now
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Chi-Mike-- good to hear from ya...and you know I am an avid DVC supporter, and have been for 20 years.<< Always good to read your posts VBDad! My post above wasn't anti-DVC member. Just that in a business sense, I would eliminate the DVC admission discount completely. It makes absolutely no sense that Disney offer it. I can't imagine they convert many DVC sales that they otherwise would not have if there was no discount in place. Certainly, the difference in DVC sales caused by that admission discount is no where near the amount needed to justify the cost of the discount on Disney's books. The fact that Disney allows the discount to the membership is nothing more than a customer service courtesy. >>But you're absolutely right in that when the sales cycle stops and it's only maintenance monies coming in, it stops being the windfall it is today.<< I wasn't trying to make that point. My point is that (the sale cycle completing) once those DVC sales have been made, the consumer is pretty much stuck with their purchase. Prior to their DVC purchase, that consumer would have been free to adjust their visit frequency based on current price/quality factors. >>I would not be happy about giving up my AP discount but would accept it if used properly - or needed to maintain the quality level of DVC today. Those of us who have invested should demand quality in return - and not count pennies...so no argument from me here.<< I agree. If WDW were to build something that would remotely interest me to return I would gladly come back and pay today's prices. I don't really have an issue with today's prices. I have an issue with how Disney attempts to invest money in WDP&R and how WDI wastes it. >>Also what needs to go immediately is free dining - it is to Disney what rebates and cheap leases were to the auto industry..it changes deliverables and expectations, and not in a good way -- stop it now<< But the "free" dining isn't really free. It is a gimmick that directs rational and irrational consumers to for-go publicly available discounts on rooms in exchange for an upfront commitment of a predetermined lump sum allocation on future dining activity, as well as, payment of an artificially inflated rack rate on the same guest room that would have otherwise been discounted. From day 1 I was against the current DDP program, and we are all living with the negative consequences that a few of us warned everyone about. It was a shell game that broke the restaurants' financial operation. Again, right-hand/left-hand.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 totally realize free dining isn't free- but cretes that illusion and multiple other problems along the way. Let's face it rebates on cars weren't free either- discounting margins got smaller.. company financed 0% financing- now that cost real money
Originally Posted By vbdad55 no- and actually glad I didn't before - prices much lower today. We will be looking again in the next few weeks-- trying to get my daughters college sey up so I know what part of the country she will be in..will determine when Imove. Not just looking Orlando however- also looking treasure coast area
Originally Posted By ChiMike Good. Glad you didn't.. Yikes. I highly recommend not pursuing Orlando. Go for the treasure coast. I have had a place in Naples. The treasure coast area will allow you to appreciate your trips up to Orlando more. Meanwhile, Universal has yet to raise their ticket prices. I'm sure they will at some point, but nonetheless amusing considering what they have built in contrast to Disney. Universal knows it needs to raise their price too, so it will be amusing to see how long they delay the next one in their game with Disney.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I think it is not price, but value that matters most, but according to this article I read today, I am in the minority: <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13725050" target="_blank">http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/maga...13725050</a> Now you see, at DLP, instead of increasing prices to pay the debts, they have cut the packaging. So you have the most beautiful MK style park in the world with the very best versions of the attractions (when they opened), but the park is open shorter hours than the US parks (more often than not, 10am to 8 pm), fireworks for 8 weeks of the year (and the hotels are double the cost nearly at that time of year), virtually no entertainment other than rubber heads (no dapper dans, no piano player, no live entertainment in Discoveryland or Frontierland), maintanence that has been shockingly poor that they are litterly having to rebuild parts of the park like the Pirate Ship, dormant geysers, a Big Thunder with few working effects (and a falling bolder put someone in the hospital last month). Less packaging. for me, I do not mind if the prices go up so long as the value is there when I arrive. Rubberheads and film based attractions, it is too expensive already. But if there is live entertainment and innovative attractions coming our way, with top notch service and well maintained, then DL is still a bargain (especially compared to the MK or DLP - though the could be improved if they had the right revenues and management).
Originally Posted By ChiMike I agree Dave. That is the crux of the issue. In my eyes, value has gone down while prices increase. That causes me to seek other options whether another Disney resort, Universal, or perhaps a different recreation option. On the flipside though, all these places are priced too low for the operations they need to sustain and the continued capital spending everyone wants to see. Long ago, the opted for a model where they rather get less admission dollars for an upfront lump-sum payment (AP), or for increased spending on hotel rooms, dining, merchandise. That model is not keeping up with today's economic climate and guest visiting patterns. It is out-dated.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Agreed. We too have been seeking other activitied too. Where we used to go to a Disney resort maybe ever 3 out of 4 holidays, now it is 1 out of 4. Mainly because of this. The issue is not cost, but value. The value of Disney experience used to be much greater (and I would be happy to pay more), but they have cut while others have grown. And sadly we get folks that would prefer to walmart the place seeming to be the majority. Great to see you posting again Mike, btw/
Originally Posted By vbdad55 Good. Glad you didn't.. Yikes. I highly recommend not pursuing Orlando. Go for the treasure coast. I have had a place in Naples. The treasure coast area will allow you to appreciate your trips up to Orlando more------------------ my friend and neighbor has a place in Naples- very nice. I guess when I leave the hsutle and bustle of Chi town I am looking to slow down some- which is wwhy I prefer the less developed east coast. Now the gulf coast seems more upscale, but at a cost -money wise as well as more crowded. it's a trade off
Originally Posted By vbdad55 Where we used to go to a Disney resort maybe ever 3 out of 4 holidays, now it is 1 out of 4. Mainly because of this. The issue is not cost, but value. --- I would hazard to say even for the biggest Disney fans-- 1 of 4 holidays trips- especially as much as your family travels is a good amount. 4 of 4 would absolutely lead to over saturization of the product as well.
