Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 First, it's nice to see ChiMike back. Seems like a lot of old 'regulars' are out there, even if they aren't making their presence known. It would be great to have your input more regularly on these forums, Mike! I want to be careful ... and be nice ... and not ... oh, the heck with that. I think a lot of folks are stuck going to WDW, so they're more willing to defend the man, defend the mediocrity and defend their life choices that put them where they are (because we all know life is always the responsibility of the individual and that corporations and banks and governments have no such constraints!) Maybe that's how people can defend Disney's latest price increases (and those bastards better honor the price they mailed me last week for my renewal or else I'm going to ruin some $9 an hour CM's afternoon this week when I call to renew!) Make no mistake, I appreciate inflation as making everything cost more. But Bolna more than ably pointed out that isn't what's at play here. And as to VBDAD's assertion that the 'real' inflation for Disney is much higher, I'll just state that if he believes that, then I'm sure he conversely believes Disney is making more money than they are stating as well, right? As Dave (my UK Duffy Bear) points out, some of us are more than willing to pay premium prices for a premium product. And being elitists, I'm sure we'd have no issue if fewer people could afford to go to WDW or DLR. The problem, of course, is that Disney USED to OFFER a premium product for a fraction of what it offers today for a much higher cost. Hey, I'll pay Nordstrom prices for Nordstrom, but don't charge me those prices and give me Walmart and the ignorantly suggest that I'd have to pay $300 a day or more to get the quality experience I want ... and one that Disney provided for decades at MUCH lower price points. At some point, people really need to stop defending corporate America or we will completely be a third world nation with nukes and delusions of grandeur that throws words like 'freedom' and 'liberty' around like Disney throws around 'wishes' and 'MAGIC'. Disney isn't hurting. Disney doesn't need to increase their prices and increase them so often and so much. Disney isn't taking that money and reinvesting in its parks. Remember, when 2014 rolls around and the 'new' and 'timeless' Fantasyland project is done, the MK will STILL not have had a major new E-Ticket debut since 1992. Digest that one and make some more excuses as you watch the 1972 MSEP fall apart as it trudges down the parade route. I am so beyond tired of hearing about how tough things are for poor corporate goliaths like TWDC. I truly don't know how Bob and Willow avoid being on Food Stamps. And was that Jay Rasulo offering himself on Hollywood Blvd to the highest bidder who drove by? Nah, it had to be Staggs, you could at least look at him. Every time Disney raises its prices, I sit back and say that I can easily make an argument as to why the parks are a good deal still. Well, I'm pretty much reached the end of that good will gravy train. I don't think one WDW park in 2011 is worth the cost of admission for a day ... and I'm having a hard time thinking they're worth it at most ticketing options when I compare them to other Disney destinations. And even Anaheim is getting absurd. Five years ago my PAP was $199 (underpriced, perhaps) ... now it would cost me $499. And the cheapest pass is $199 for SoCal residents. My last AP a deluxe cost about $229 in 2007 and is now $379? Well, I was planning on buying one, but now ... I think I'll just have my CM pals comp me in and not pay a penny as I've done on four trips since 2008 now. Two other points: I think some folks who bought DVC and are tied to the Mouse are regretting it (this ought to be fun) and; When people get holier-than-thou and say that 'if $20 or $200 or whatever number makes that much of a difference than you shouldn't be taking the trip', I get a little bothered ... or a lot. I'm more than happy to offer advice when people ask it, but I don't believe I have any right to tell folks how to spend their money unless there's an obvious moral issue (kids are malnourished, but family is doing a week at the Poly?!?!?) I am about to take a trip that I really probably shouldn't ... but I'm doing it because my family and my health are a whole lot more important than money. And I rather die flat broke than die with all sorts of stuff and money, but not having truly lived. If someone is dumb enough (like my good buddies VBDAD and EPCOT Explorer) to want to visit WDW, especially in June, then I will tell them to have a MAGICal time (in the good way) and I won't judge them for opting to spend (waste?) their $$$ on a product that isn't worth what it now goes for because life is waaaay too short and people should (within reason) do what brings them joy. they still get it at WDW, while I largely don't. So, I'm off to go enjoy some yogurt and figure out how I can play funny money with the numbers to get myself to Alaska (I want to marry me a Palin!) for a few weeks.
Originally Posted By MousDad Spirit, if TWDC was the CIA, you would have been so dead, so many years ago. lol.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>First, it's nice to see ChiMike back. Seems like a lot of old 'regulars' are out there, even if they aren't making their presence known. It would be great to have your input more regularly on these forums, Mike!<< As always, thanks for the kind words Spirit. It's nice to be remembered. I am always lurking and lazily watching you work hard to keep things on the level. You certainly have helped contribute to the drastic changes some on here have taken in their opinions. >>Maybe that's how people can defend Disney's latest price increases (and those bastards better honor the price they mailed me last week for my renewal or else I'm going to ruin some $9 an hour CM's afternoon this week when I call to renew!)<< I think you're right on with why folks can't be critical about the very things they participate in. But in my case, my defense is rooted in the fact that the parks have yet to become less crowded with the continual price increases. The guests have spoken, less value, higher prices win the day. That will continue to be the case, so I have, I guess, given up hope for improvement at WDW in the short term. >>Make no mistake, I appreciate inflation as making everything cost more. But Bolna more than ably pointed out that isn't what's at play here. And as to VBDAD's assertion that the 'real' inflation for Disney is much higher, I'll just state that if he believes that, then I'm sure he conversely believes Disney is making more money than they are stating as well, right?<< I, believe that the company continues to make more from the parks themselves to support other pet initiatives within the WDP&R umbrella. I also believe that whether it works or not in both of our idealized worlds, Disney uses the cost pressures as a legitimate excuse to further reduce operations/quality and attempt to raise revenue. >>As Dave (my UK Duffy Bear) points out, some of us are more than willing to pay premium prices for a premium product. And being elitists, I'm sure we'd have no issue if fewer people could afford to go to WDW or DLR.<< Agreed. >>The problem, of course, is that Disney USED to OFFER a premium product for a fraction of what it offers today for a much higher cost.<< Agreed. >>Hey, I'll pay Nordstrom prices for Nordstrom, but don't charge me those prices and give me Walmart and the ignorantly suggest that I'd have to pay $300 a day or more to get the quality experience I want ... and one that Disney provided for decades at MUCH lower price points.<< Agreed. >>Disney isn't hurting.<< Agreed. >>Disney doesn't need to increase their prices and increase them so often and so much.<< Disagree. For me, they need to keep increasing prices until we get more manageable crowd levels in relation to the current capacity of the parks. Many things have limited the true capacity Disney thinks the parks currently have v. what I mean when I say "currently". Fastpass, closed dining locations, excessive ODV, reduced operations with dining, attractions, entertainments, all lower the true capacity of the parks. Now for Disney, they need to significantly raise the amount of money they theoretically receive everytime someone enters the gate. Just because a guest is coming in on the 8th day of their park hopper doesn't mean it now only costs $4 to run the park for that guest. These goofy pricing schemes were concocted by someone with little to no practical experience and without any idea how it impacts the folks who have to defend the parks' operation as a loss leader. This pricing scheme were implemented for goals that DID NOT take the park‘s operation into consideration. I welcome, and I understand, why Disney now needs to start chipping away at MYW and APs. >>Disney isn't taking that money and reinvesting in its parks.<< Absolutely agree. >>Remember, when 2014 rolls around and the 'new' and 'timeless' Fantasyland project is done, the MK will STILL not have had a major new E-Ticket debut since 1992.<< Tell me about it. That's the ultimate rub. How about there will not be a net positive in traditional attractions for MK after this expansion. I lived through the various expansion plans proposed for the MK. They all added to the park. This one is a reshuffle. How about EPCOT will not have seen a new pavilion added for 25 years!! How about EPCOT will not have had a true pavilion swap-out for 10 years!! How about Animal Kingdom?? In 2014 it will have been 8 years since Everest* >>Digest that one and make some more excuses as you watch the 1972 MSEP fall apart as it trudges down the parade route.<< At least they move faster than the monorail fleet. >>I am so beyond tired of hearing about how tough things are for poor corporate goliaths like TWDC. I truly don't know how Bob and Willow avoid being on Food Stamps. And was that Jay Rasulo offering himself on Hollywood Blvd to the highest bidder who drove by? Nah, it had to be Staggs, you could at least look at him.<< I'll be a little redundant here, but bear with me... Again, in our perfect world, the company will not operate the way it has since the day Eisner decided to enroll in a MBA course as CEO. Say what you want about the current leadership team, the Disney Corporation will never get off the idea that it needs certain metrics hit by WDP&R on the corporate level. My issue is not with the cash coming out of WDP&R, my issue is with how the cash is invested back into it. That's a far more larger problem. One that can be solved. I remember the report about how angry Stan Gold was in 1998 or 1999, whenever it was that Eisner published that ridiculous 6-cyclinder engine analogy in his letter to shareholders in the Annual Report. I won't get into it, but Eisner was completely missing the boat, and no one in the company really wanted to call him out on it. Disney will always use the parks to cover poorly thought-out initiatives such as his during that era of go.com, fox family channel, Dinosaur, Pearl Harbor, Muppets later on, etc. The point is the parks will always have the burden of producing the ‘Return’ of the misplaced investment in WDP&R. Whether it be on NextGen, Hong Kong or a car stunt show. The parks will always have to cough up enough dough to hit their internal expectation while grappling with the increased operational costs those blunders bring on. >>Every time Disney raises its prices, I sit back and say that I can easily make an argument as to why the parks are a good deal still.<< I'm impressed! 'Cause I truly can't any longer. Luckily for Disney, millions of guests still can. >>Well, I'm pretty much reached the end of that good will gravy train.<< Glad to have you aboard. >>I don't think one WDW park in 2011 is worth the cost of admission for a day<< That certainly is the truth. While they need to keep cranking up the AP prices, I would like to see them chill out on 1day and 2day prices. It's all rather moot anyways. It's like rack rates. No one really pays those prices. Its a benchmark for discounting. You don't think all of those Brazilian tour groups are paying anywhere near the gate price on MYW tickets, right?? >>And even Anaheim is getting absurd. Five years ago my PAP was $199 (underpriced, perhaps) ... now it would cost me $499. And the cheapest pass is $199 for SoCal residents. My last AP a deluxe cost about $229 in 2007 and is now $379?<< What I find absurd are the levels of local AP holders. I also took advantage of the $199 APs 6-10 years ago. At DL, I certainly have no problem paying more to cut that AP population down. Again, Disneyland will not continue on if someone is financing at what at one time was a $99 pass. The park wasn’t built to be a country club for SoCal. It is supposed to be a tourist destination. >>I think some folks who bought DVC and are tied to the Mouse are regretting it (this ought to be fun)<< If I was still a member I would be plenty upset at the current conditions of the resort. People like VBDad can't get too worked up because they have certainly maximized their gains from an early purchase. For those who spend $100+ a point, those people have to feel burned deep down. >>When people get holier-than-thou and say that 'if $20 or $200 or whatever number makes that much of a difference than you shouldn't be taking the trip', I get a little bothered << I've made a point not to go there with my comments. I will say that not everyone needs to have a premium pass to make their Disney vacation complete. If the price increase is an issue, maybe a cheaper admission strategy is called for. >>If someone is dumb enough (like my good buddies VBDAD and EPCOT Explorer) to want to visit WDW, especially in June, then I will tell them to have a MAGICal time (in the good way) and I won't judge them for opting to spend (waste?) their $$$ on a product that isn't worth what it now goes for because life is waaaay too short and people should (within reason) do what brings them joy. they still get it at WDW, while I largely don't.<< I can't agree more. A very excellent point. It's only when those very same people turn around and try to lecture others who have seen it all over the last three-four decades, that issues arise.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Spirit, if TWDC was the CIA, you would have been so dead, so many years ago. lol.>> Why? The CIA doesn't shoot patriots ... and when it comes to Disney, well ... you know who's leading the charge (Paul Revere, Sarah Palin ... and The Spirit!)
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer ^ Just don't mention any plans you have concerning meeting Mrs. Palin in the Wonderful Land of Alaska (Russia's neighbor) and you'll be fine.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>If someone is dumb enough (like my good buddies VBDAD and EPCOT Explorer) to want to visit WDW, especially in June, then I will tell them to have a MAGICal time (in the good way) and I won't judge them for opting to spend (waste?) their $$$ on a product that isn't worth what it now goes for because life is waaaay too short and people should (within reason) do what brings them joy. they still get it at WDW, while I largely don't.<<<< *insert witty line from phone conversation here* There. There's the post you asked for. And as you well know, I got two vacations for the price of one, and at the old rate, so it's hardly a waste. ;-)
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<As always, thanks for the kind words Spirit. It's nice to be remembered. I am always lurking and lazily watching you work hard to keep things on the level. You certainly have helped contribute to the drastic changes some on here have taken in their opinions.>> I think a lot of ex-regulars are lurking around here and there. I wish the community was thriving as it did before the cliques moved to FB and Twitter (a sign Satan does exist! ;-) ) and Disney started its systematic attempt to destroy the independent fan sites (I'd love to hear any/all thoughts you might have on the Spirited Social Media thread). There's been some life of late here, but it's not nearly what it was 6-7 years ago and that's a shame. And I'd like to think I at least make some people think, even if they don't agree with me. There's so much about Disney (and major media in general) that is fascinating. Instead of dealing with refillable mugs and what resort is your favorite and when is Disney going to force UNI to give up and give us Spidey and the Hulk (OK, no one here is stupid enough to push that agenda ... that's for more MAGICal fanbois!) But, the point is, people will read and think about deeper issues if you allow that to develop. Doobie and the powers here should be commended for showing just how open they are because this thread would be killed on any other Disney site. I'm proud to be part of an online forum/community with integrity. >>Maybe that's how people can defend Disney's latest price increases (and those bastards better honor the price they mailed me last week for my renewal or else I'm going to ruin some $9 an hour CM's afternoon this week when I call to renew!)<< <<I think you're right on with why folks can't be critical about the very things they participate in. But in my case, my defense is rooted in the fact that the parks have yet to become less crowded with the continual price increases. The guests have spoken, less value, higher prices win the day. That will continue to be the case, so I have, I guess, given up hope for improvement at WDW in the short term.>> I don't know. I go far less. And I go at weird times. A MK visit last month, for instance, was of the 9 p.m. to 1:45 a.m. variety ... crowds weren't really a factor. I try to avoid them. Hell, I FINALLY made it to TDR last November/December and in four straight days I never waited longer than 35 minutes for anything. I just do my best to avoid crowds because I can't stand them ... but they haven't gotten any worse in O-Town or Anaheim in my experiences (which again, to be fair, aren't what they were five years ago!) I spent more time in 2010 at HKDL than I did at DAK and TPFKaTD-MGMS and DL and DCA combined, so my park-hopping routine has changed some ;-) But I gave up for WDW many years ago now. They are a real estate development company/timeshare seller/hotel building company now. The parks are just an ancillary deal. >>Make no mistake, I appreciate inflation as making everything cost more. But Bolna more than ably pointed out that isn't what's at play here. And as to VBDAD's assertion that the 'real' inflation for Disney is much higher, I'll just state that if he believes that, then I'm sure he conversely believes Disney is making more money than they are stating as well, right?<< <<I, believe that the company continues to make more from the parks themselves to support other pet initiatives within the WDP&R umbrella. I also believe that whether it works or not in both of our idealized worlds, Disney uses the cost pressures as a legitimate excuse to further reduce operations/quality and attempt to raise revenue.>> Agreeds. >>As Dave (my UK Duffy Bear) points out, some of us are more than willing to pay premium prices for a premium product. And being elitists, I'm sure we'd have no issue if fewer people could afford to go to WDW or DLR.<< <<Agreed. >>The problem, of course, is that Disney USED to OFFER a premium product for a fraction of what it offers today for a much higher cost.<< Agreed. >>Hey, I'll pay Nordstrom prices for Nordstrom, but don't charge me those prices and give me Walmart and the ignorantly suggest that I'd have to pay $300 a day or more to get the quality experience I want ... and one that Disney provided for decades at MUCH lower price points.<< Agreed. >>Disney isn't hurting.<< Agreed.>> Damn, you're very agreeable these days. We used to not agree on everything! Oh wait, I see something ... >>Disney doesn't need to increase their prices and increase them so often and so much.<< <<Disagree. For me, they need to keep increasing prices until we get more manageable crowd levels in relation to the current capacity of the parks. Many things have limited the true capacity Disney thinks the parks currently have v. what I mean when I say "currently". Fastpass, closed dining locations, excessive ODV, reduced operations with dining, attractions, entertainments, all lower the true capacity of the parks.>> They won't ... well, they will ... but it will be slow and steady. I know George K and TDA had already plotted out hitting the $500 mark with the PAP this year and they just did ($1 means nothing except for people who don't get that $500 is only 100 pennies more than $499!) The goal from what I gather internally is to reach $700 (oops, $699) within two years. ... All of the above issues you listed are bigger causes for overcrowding in the parks than the APs are, especially at WDW. And, understand it (although I'm sure you do), that Disney doesn't give one damn about lowering the AP numbers (sorry, Al Lutz, you're wrong about that). What they want is even more APers paying even higher prices. <<Now for Disney, they need to significantly raise the amount of money they theoretically receive everytime someone enters the gate. Just because a guest is coming in on the 8th day of their park hopper doesn't mean it now only costs $4 to run the park for that guest. These goofy pricing schemes were concocted by someone with little to no practical experience and without any idea how it impacts the folks who have to defend the parks' operation as a loss leader. This pricing scheme were implemented for goals that DID NOT take the park‘s operation into consideration. I welcome, and I understand, why Disney now needs to start chipping away at MYW and APs.>> Well, the whole point of MYW, which was George's brainchild (and led to his promos to Paris and Anaheim), wasn't related to the cost of the extra days. For all purposes, those days are free. It was designed to keep folks hostage on WDW swampland for an extra day or two or three. The idea was they'd make up in hotel, food and beverage and retail the cost of basically giving the parks away the longer guests stayed. That was the case (again see George's promo to Paris) in the first three years before the economy just tanked and people stopped staying as long and buying food and pins, plush and princess crap. Rightly or wrongly, they were only looking at keeping guests there ... not what that meant to the way the parks' bottom lines were measured. >>Disney isn't taking that money and reinvesting in its parks.<< <<Absolutely agree.>> Oh c'mon, don't construction walls touting Waltisms that TWDC no longer believes in make you all hot and bothered. >>Remember, when 2014 rolls around and the 'new' and 'timeless' Fantasyland project is done, the MK will STILL not have had a major new E-Ticket debut since 1992.<< <<Tell me about it. That's the ultimate rub. How about there will not be a net positive in traditional attractions for MK after this expansion. I lived through the various expansion plans proposed for the MK. They all added to the park. This one is a reshuffle.>> 'Splain that one to MAGICal fanbois who don't understand this is NOT an expansion in the real sense of the word. <<How about EPCOT will not have seen a new pavilion added for 25 years!! How about EPCOT will not have had a true pavilion swap-out for 10 years!! How about Animal Kingdom?? In 2014 it will have been 8 years since Everest*>> Well, there's art floating around for the Brazil pavilion (that I still don't see happening) and I don't believe there are any remotely serious plans for Imagination, Energy and WoL right now. >>Digest that one and make some more excuses as you watch the 1972 MSEP fall apart as it trudges down the parade route.<< <<At least they move faster than the monorail fleet.>> In honour of TDLFAN, I will just say the WDW fleet is totally ghetto ... like a 96 Pontiac Grand Am in the Metro West 'hood of O-Town! >>I am so beyond tired of hearing about how tough things are for poor corporate goliaths like TWDC. I truly don't know how Bob and Willow avoid being on Food Stamps. And was that Jay Rasulo offering himself on Hollywood Blvd to the highest bidder who drove by? Nah, it had to be Staggs, you could at least look at him.<< <<I'll be a little redundant here, but bear with me... Again, in our perfect world, the company will not operate the way it has since the day Eisner decided to enroll in a MBA course as CEO. Say what you want about the current leadership team, the Disney Corporation will never get off the idea that it needs certain metrics hit by WDP&R on the corporate level. My issue is not with the cash coming out of WDP&R, my issue is with how the cash is invested back into it. That's a far more larger problem. One that can be solved. >> Yes, it can be ... but do you see anyone with the balls to do so? There's so little vision from Iger on down, it's just amazing ... this IS The Walt Freaking Disney Company here. And there's so little creativity and vision when it comes to much of anything except the bulge Iger gets when Jobs shows him another Apple toy. <<I remember the report about how angry Stan Gold was in 1998 or 1999, whenever it was that Eisner published that ridiculous 6-cyclinder engine analogy in his letter to shareholders in the Annual Report. I won't get into it, but Eisner was completely missing the boat, and no one in the company really wanted to call him out on it. Disney will always use the parks to cover poorly thought-out initiatives such as his during that era of go.com, fox family channel, Dinosaur, Pearl Harbor, Muppets later on, etc.>> You are forgetting the Mighty Ducks and the Now Anaheim Angels of Los Angeles ... Club Disney ... and Disney Quest and all the DRE concepts that died (even good ones like ESPN Zones) ... overexpansion of Disney Stores ... destroying ABC by stripping Who Wants To Be a Millionaire? 4-5 nights ... should I go on? <<The point is the parks will always have the burden of producing the ‘Return’ of the misplaced investment in WDP&R. Whether it be on NextGen, Hong Kong or a car stunt show. The parks will always have to cough up enough dough to hit their internal expectation while grappling with the increased operational costs those blunders bring on.>> Agreed (we should sing together ...) >>Every time Disney raises its prices, I sit back and say that I can easily make an argument as to why the parks are a good deal still.<< <<I'm impressed! 'Cause I truly can't any longer. Luckily for Disney, millions of guests still can.>> People are dumber than dirt these days. And to be fair, many of them are buying into hype and marketing and realizing they were taken for a ride (not an E-Ticket, either) after forking over $10,000 for a MAGICal WDW vacation. >>Well, I'm pretty much reached the end of that good will gravy train.<< <<Glad to have you aboard.>> So long as this train is headed north to Alaska, I'm happy to be onboard! >>I don't think one WDW park in 2011 is worth the cost of admission for a day<< <<That certainly is the truth. While they need to keep cranking up the AP prices, I would like to see them chill out on 1day and 2day prices. It's all rather moot anyways. It's like rack rates. No one really pays those prices. Its a benchmark for discounting. You don't think all of those Brazilian tour groups are paying anywhere near the gate price on MYW tickets, right??>> It's all a shell game (MAGICal Ponzi?) ... they do keep raising prices to absurd price points in this economy, yet at the same time they never stop discounting. Iger keeps lying about it. But they keep on keeping on. It doesn't end. Whether it's a week free for UKers on 14 night stays. Whether it's free dining for 2/3rds of the year. Whether it's gift cards at check in. Whether it's constant AP/FLA resident/deals ... it just never ends. >>And even Anaheim is getting absurd. Five years ago my PAP was $199 (underpriced, perhaps) ... now it would cost me $499. And the cheapest pass is $199 for SoCal residents. My last AP a deluxe cost about $229 in 2007 and is now $379?<< <<What I find absurd are the levels of local AP holders. I also took advantage of the $199 APs 6-10 years ago. At DL, I certainly have no problem paying more to cut that AP population down. Again, Disneyland will not continue on if someone is financing at what at one time was a $99 pass. The park wasn’t built to be a country club for SoCal. It is supposed to be a tourist destination.>> Well, the whole AP issue is ... I dunno where to even begin. But as I said above, Disney isn't looking to cull the herd. They're looking to sell more at even higher price points. Now, DL (and WDW) was never intended to be visited monthly, let alone weekly, let alone daily by either no-lifers (see Social Media bloggers thread!), kids needing after-school entertainment/babysitting etc ... Disney Parks aren't supposed to be the mall or the multi-plex. But I don't know how you get away from that when Disney has been pushing this agenda since the mid-late 1990s. And while it's worse in Anaheim, it has become quite widespread in O-Town too. I love the parks, even just to walk around in them. But I would be bored senseless if I was there every week and not working there (again, blogging or podcasting or taking 234 pictures of the Art of Animation Hotel construction is NOT work in any way, shape or form). >>I think some folks who bought DVC and are tied to the Mouse are regretting it (this ought to be fun)<< <<If I was still a member I would be plenty upset at the current conditions of the resort. People like VBDad can't get too worked up because they have certainly maximized their gains from an early purchase. For those who spend $100+ a point, those people have to feel burned deep down.>> I had always hoped the DVCers would lead a WDW revival, but the opposite seems true as bizarre as that should be. They are (except for the oldtimers who visited and bought in in the first 5-6 years) conditioned to a much lower quality product. There seems to be very few DVCers that are vocal about the product not being what it should be. I tend to think the distraught DVCers just sell out and quit cold turkey rather than fight a battle. >>When people get holier-than-thou and say that 'if $20 or $200 or whatever number makes that much of a difference than you shouldn't be taking the trip', I get a little bothered << <<I've made a point not to go there with my comments. I will say that not everyone needs to have a premium pass to make their Disney vacation complete. If the price increase is an issue, maybe a cheaper admission strategy is called for.>> I agree. I currently have APs only to WDW and HKDL ... the latter being an incredible value when you live/work in HK as I did last fall. I'm about to renew my WDW AP for the 29th straight year ... I certainly think it's worth $324 to do so (although part of me does feel 'entitled' to a larger discount for that kind of loyalty). I admit I do it for two reasons: 1.) I have lots of friends in the O-Town area, so I am up there enough to easily make it a good value; and 2.) sadly, I realize I am not the kind of guest WDW wants anymore ... so I am making it a point of being the last Charter AP holder standing ... yeah, I guess I'm nuts, but I'm going to be spiteful to a corporation. The fact they don't want me makes me want to keep coming back more. >>If someone is dumb enough (like my good buddies VBDAD and EPCOT Explorer) to want to visit WDW, especially in June, then I will tell them to have a MAGICal time (in the good way) and I won't judge them for opting to spend (waste?) their $$$ on a product that isn't worth what it now goes for because life is waaaay too short and people should (within reason) do what brings them joy. they still get it at WDW, while I largely don't.<< <<I can't agree more. A very excellent point. It's only when those very same people turn around and try to lecture others who have seen it all over the last three-four decades, that issues arise.>> I don't like being lectured to myself ... I tend to act out ... yep, I can be a bad-arse Spirit at times!
Originally Posted By MousDad >>Why? The CIA doesn't shoot patriots<< Of course not. Silly me. >>and when it comes to Disney, well ... you know who's leading the charge (Paul Revere, Sarah Palin ... and The Spirit!)<< On which Disney Mountain should we carve the faces?
Originally Posted By Bob Paris 1 "we will completely be a third world nation with nukes and delusions of grandeur that throws words like 'freedom' and 'liberty' around like Disney throws around 'wishes' and 'MAGIC'." Sorry to ruin the "American Dream" for ya Spirit, but the rest of the world has been saying this about those highly vaunted ideals for DECADES now! The freedom and liberty bit, not the wishes and magic thing. Hell, I remember back to July 1996 when "Independence Day" came out - now remember kids, this is almost fifteen years ago now - and when President Bill Pullman gets up to do his groan-inducing speech, well, yep, you guessed it, there were groans aplenty. Just about anybody who isn't American finds this stuff just kinda tacky and embarrassing(not saying this is a GOOD thing, it's all subjective after all). I guess we can kinda see through it all and see the hippocracy(as EVERY country has double standards)and we all kind of cringe in embarrassment at the earnestness of it when it's paying lip-service to ideals that mask a country where you only matter if you have money or power and the poorest people cannot have health care. So, yeah, it's a bit late to worry about all that now!
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>I had always hoped the DVCers would lead a WDW revival, but the opposite seems true as bizarre as that should be. They are (except for the oldtimers who visited and bought in in the first 5-6 years) conditioned to a much lower quality product. There seems to be very few DVCers that are vocal about the product not being what it should be. I tend to think the distraught DVCers just sell out and quit cold turkey rather than fight a battle.<<< Yep, I know a fair few folk (and redweek/Tug/Dis boards are full of sales), and of the folks I know, they have said the quality is not there anymore. Then there are other DVCers who have the attitude of "A day at Disney is better than a day elsewhere", but this seems to come largely (but not all) from people that tend to only vacation in WDW (maybe Vero Beach).
Originally Posted By FenwayGirl Stay away from the Southeast Florida coast..Lived in WPB for 10 years in the late 80'/earlly 90's and it was pretty crowded and scary then..
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer ^ It still is... Dade and Broward are no better. I dislike it here. Only good thing is the 3 hour drive to WDW.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Damn, you're very agreeable these days. We used to not agree on everything!<< I know! It's good to see that you've finally turned your fanboi back on Wishes, Capt. Jack and M:S! It makes me smile >>All of the above issues you listed are bigger causes for overcrowding in the parks than the APs are, especially at WDW.<< At WDW, yes, those issues are far more detrimental. The issues with APs at WDW are not so much related to overcrowding, but more to the point that they help some profit centers (food/hotels) while making it harder on others. AT DL, without a doubt they lend to a far less impressive experience for the guest. Just look at the waits on new attractions on a AP black-out date v. an open date. Staggering! There is no excuse for 45 minutes of gridlock in the plaza during the first week of December. The park was simply not built for the AP population that currently exists and their visiting pattern/behavior. >>And, understand it (although I'm sure you do), that Disney doesn't give one damn about lowering the AP numbers (sorry, Al Lutz, you're wrong about that). What they want is even more APers paying even higher prices.<< And that would be fine too. At least those people are contributing more to the financial operation of the park. They have more skin in the game in contrast to the tourist from Utah on a 3 day hopper. >>Well, the whole point of MYW, which was George's brainchild (and led to his promos to Paris and Anaheim), wasn't related to the cost of the extra days. For all purposes, those days are free. It was designed to keep folks hostage on WDW swampland for an extra day or two or three. The idea was they'd make up in hotel, food and beverage and retail the cost of basically giving the parks away the longer guests stayed. That was the case (again see George's promo to Paris) in the first three years before the economy just tanked and people stopped staying as long and buying food and pins, plush and princess crap. Rightly or wrongly, they were only looking at keeping guests there ... not what that meant to the way the parks' bottom lines were measured. << And I agree with this. You basically said what I'm trying to in a much more polished fashion. I am rusty. Their goals where not in line with the need for the parks admission to hit certain revenue levels. So the Food and Hotels do better, but the parks operations have to make serious cuts in maintenance, janitorial, etc. because John gets to visit for the entire day for $4. This whole concept is now outdated and does not work in today's marketplace or the needs of the parks' operations. >>Well, there's art floating around for the Brazil pavilion (that I still don't see happening) and I don't believe there are any remotely serious plans for Imagination, Energy and WoL right now. << Even if any of those proposals come to fruition they won't be open in the next 2 years. I can't imagine it. Meanwhile, in Anaheim.... >>I had always hoped the DVCers would lead a WDW revival, but the opposite seems true as bizarre as that should be. They are (except for the oldtimers who visited and bought in in the first 5-6 years) conditioned to a much lower quality product. There seems to be very few DVCers that are vocal about the product not being what it should be. I tend to think the distraught DVCers just sell out and quit cold turkey rather than fight a battle. << They're too busy defending their purchase decision. As we said before. It's a natural conflict. They prepaid for a vacation to achieve a substantial discount. Like those who prepaid for dining to achieve a substantial discount. The thing is you have to use it. You have to want and eat that dessert to justify the reason for prepayment. You have to use DVC to justify the savings. It's hard to be negative when you have prepaid into something longer than a year (AP).
Originally Posted By Bolna <<The problem, of course, is that Disney USED to OFFER a premium product for a fraction of what it offers today for a much higher cost. Hey, I'll pay Nordstrom prices for Nordstrom, but don't charge me those prices and give me Walmart and the ignorantly suggest that I'd have to pay $300 a day or more to get the quality experience I want ... and one that Disney provided for decades at MUCH lower price points.>> That is one thing that I just don't understand: As far as I know (and I am by no means a Walt Disney Company expert, so if I am wrong about that, please tell me), WDW was always earning money for the company. What has changed today? If they once were able to offer a higher quality product for a lower price, have they increased their profit that much since then? Or what happens to that money they save by cutting things and the money they get in addition by raising prices?
Originally Posted By fkurucz >> If they once were able to offer a higher quality product for a lower price, have they increased their profit that much since then? << American publicly traded corporations are under pressure from Wall St to maximize profits. Failure to meet Wall St.'s expectations will result in a much lower stock price. For this reason American companies are obsessed with cutting costs and expenses above all else. Innovation and creativity are not as important. Unlike in Germany, the concept of a "fair price" to charge does not exist, which is why if you are a supplier to an Amercican firm, they will always be badgering you to charge them less, even if it means that you make no profit.
Originally Posted By Bolna fkurucz, thanks for the explanation. I still wonder, have they really increased their profits at the parks that much?? I guess I will never really find out.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>I still wonder, have they really increased their profits at the parks that much?? I guess I will never really find out.<< I'll try to be brief as possible so this might come across as simplistic... In the last years, they have shifted the focus to producing more revenue on areas in where they can better control variable costs. Not only do they get to do so, but they feel that there is a better chance of growing new revenue streams in the very same areas. Dining, Merchandise, Upcharge events, Special Activities, even in some respect Lodging. The problem with this is at the same time the heavy fixed costs (Park Operations) start creeping up in expense against the revenue generated off of admission. And admission like all revenue sources needs to hit increasing financial goals expected by Corporate every quarter. (see Post 116). So, in a nutshell, local management is trying to "keep people on property" to enhance new revenue channels, control variable costs, all at the expense of admission revenue. Then, naturally, fixed costs rise and admission can't keep up pace. The dynamic is described internally as being a symptom of a bad economy rather than a superficial pricing scheme. So, fixed costs are further cut. While they still keep a tight grip on variable costs both in operations and in those secondary services. Whew, I hope I am clear with that? Anyways, that is why I support them raising admission. Because whether we like it or not, they won't start acting like it's 1976 again. So at least it will delay them cutting more expenses. It's up to them to figure out a way to justify the price increase with an improved guest experience. A whole other discussion.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 And as to VBDAD's assertion that the 'real' inflation for Disney is much higher, I'll just state that if he believes that, then I'm sure he conversely believes Disney is making more money than they are stating as well, right? ---0 SPirit now you're not even thinking through your posts-- accounting 101 my man-- more costs = lower profit. How you can't follow the post that I made as basic as possible since I do regularly haveinput into large corporate balance sheets - shows me you don't want to- cetainly not that you can't If you want to pretend their costs aren't higher with the amount of headcount ( overhead) they have- fine, but please don't try and explain it, it comes of showing the anger you have towards management. No issue with the anger when it's well placed- and there have been plenty of reasons to show that- but to try and claim their costs haven't increased incrementally for the SAME stuff is denial.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 If someone is dumb enough (like my good buddies VBDAD and EPCOT Explorer) to want to visit WDW, especially in June, then I will tell them to have a MAGICal time (in the good way) and I won't judge them for opting to spend (waste?) their $$$ on a product that isn't worth what it now goes for because life is waaaay too short and people should (within reason) do what brings them joy. they still get it at WDW, while I largely don't --- okay, my daughter is down there for 5 days in a national championship AAU event at WWoS and OCCC anyway - and she has a grand total of 4 weeks off in summer from club ball and high school- but I'm DUMB for going in June. I think you need that vacation Spirit as the rationale for me going now is really fairly simple. I am not just taking care of ME by going now- it is the entire family I have to budget time around. One day you may know the same pressures and see what decisions you make. As for EE and I still enjoying it-- that's obvious and I for one am glad I still am. Were some things better 10-15 years ago- yes they were. Are there a few great things now- yep. But this does not mean I am STUCK going anywhere. I can go as I choose even with DVC points. And if I ever felt I was being totally screwed by DVC- I would sell it in a heartbeat..just not the case. as for 100 a point buyers- I know plenty of them, don't knowone who feels like you think they do. not a single one. They battle for rights within their resort- complain if something is wrong..but also enjoy what they bought into. Every one has kids - most are 10-15 years younger than me- my sisters age. I guess they see things differently. Are things perfect - no...but they are not in the crapper everywhere either.
