Originally Posted By Maihama << On the other hand, if a server knows they'll be getting $18 an hour regardless of what people think of their service, is there really incentive to give excellent service? >> If someone has a decent wage, but doesn't provide good service he/she can be simply kicked out of the job.
Originally Posted By Liberty Belle Sorry, I obviously didn't word my last post very well. I didn't mean someone who's getting a good wage will just ignore their customers or be rude to them - I'm in a customer call service and like to think I'm polite and helpful without ever getting tips. What I meant to say was, there's no incentive to really go *above and beyond* with your service provided if you know you won't be getting tips out of it. Of course all servers have to give at least some degree of good service if they want to keep their jobs, but as Deb and Dave said, the service is better in the US system where they know they rely on tips, than it is here where tips aren't given out. In the US, waiters are popping up all the time to refill your drinks - here it's much harder to get that level of service.
Originally Posted By LuLu My opinion - the incentive to go above and beyond should be performance reviews and raises (if not one's own ethics / personality, forget that I suppose!). Apparently I was just lucky to get good service in France. I didn't find it lacking compared to the US. It's bizarre the system we have in the US. In many professions, it would be considered rude or a bribe (possibly illegal!) to tip someone for good service. Yet in others it's expected or even necessary. Oh well...
Originally Posted By LuLu OK, my bad, I just learned from Darkbeer in another thread that it's 18% tip.
Originally Posted By berol I'd have to get a loooooot of character time for the place to deserve 18% for a buffet.
Originally Posted By dlkozy 18% is ridiculous for a buffet. Both my daughters have been waitresses at FULL restuarants and are lucky to get 15% for great service. I have never been to Goofy's when I have thought that the wait staff deserved even 15% for just fillin' the drinks. Most times we have had to flag them down to get drinks refilled in a timely fashion.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster Prices on a menu are the prices for the menu items only. Having them served to you while you are sitting comfortably in a chair at a table is a bonus. For that bonus you are expected to tip the person serving you. Here in the States that person is making almost no income except for your tips. If the food you ordered comes to you correctly and in a timely manner that is the work of your server. Anything you ask for, any special requests that you actually get, are the work of your server. Servers work very hard for their tips even though you may not feel that your particular table is getting as much attention as it deserves. Sure there are some lazy ones but they usually don't last very long in this business. Anyone who tips coins is asking for bad service the next time they visit. Tipped employees have a talent for remembering dreadful tippers. I am a bartender and my income is 90% tips. Leave me coins and I'll make your drinks weak and bland. Tip me well and I will give you the night of your life. Sorry, but tips pay for service. The food and drinks don't deliver themselves.
Originally Posted By DisneySuiteFreak "I always do my tips in cash....I was told the servers like that and don't have to claim it for tax purposes.." "Legally they are still supposed to log the cash tips, but of course there's no way to account for it if the server just keeps his mouth shut." Legally they are supposed to claim it, and I have known many waitresses who make $2.25 an hour in this day and age, and far less (we're talking 1986's $1.25/hour) who got/get audited by the IRS on a regular basis. The minimum wage for waithelp has hardly gone up at all when you consider cost of living, inflation, etc. How much did we pay for gas back in 1985 compared to 2007? Some of the waitresses I knew were required to pay more taxes (on top of what they already paid) even though they kept log books showing what they earned daily in tips. It's simple: if the IRS suspects your ability to pay your bills exceeds your income that you are declaring, you gotta pay the taxes, or produce credible log books and records showing exactly how much you were tipped every day that you worked, and how much you tipped out to other co-workers -- and they'll also want to know how you are able to pay your bills if the figures don't add up. (So you'll have to show them where you got the money to pay it!) If you can't show that, or they don't find the info to be credible, you will be required to pay what *they* think you owe. OR, you can go hire a tax lawyer for $150+ per hour to fight your case in tax court for God knows how many years. How many waiters do you think can afford that burden? Most just shut up and pay the taxes. And, if the IRS suspects that they are evading taxes or lying about income earned (that's evasion, folks), they can go back any number of years to nail them to the wall - and they will. They will also go after their employers to pay taxes owed if a person is suspected of underreporting. Because of this, a lot of restaurants/bars now automatically deduct 8% of a servers Gross sales to cover their own butts -- because they sure as heck don't want to be found liable for any taxes, interest and penalties owed by the waithelp to the IRS. They're doing their civic duty by doing this favor for the IRS. (HA!) They do it as a precautionary measure. Imagine for a moment that a family of 4 eats out at Sizzler, and the bill comes out to around $60. You leave 10% tip = $6. IRS takes $4.80 of that $6 (8% of the gross sale)= $1.20 tip left for your server. Add that to the $2.13 minimum required by law and they are still making far less than minimum wage. Even worse, what happens when they don't get any tips at all? Now they're working for even further less than minimum wage to *pay taxes on money they never ever received.* These are hard working people trying to make an honest living, some working their way through school, trying to pay bills and get by just like the rest of us. Having been a waitress in college, I can tell you that I don't know one person that would be a waitress because they *really* love the hard work, and getting stiffed. (Let's not even mention the unappreciative customers w/ a strong sense of entitlement!)I'm a strong believer of the customer is always right, but some customers...WOW!!! Why has service gone downhill? Maybe because the ones who have the most experience doing it quit as soon as they are qualified to do something better that pays them a living wage??? It would be nice if the corporations would pay them a decent wage. But this is Capitalistic America folks, and it ain't gonna happen. They are relying on consumers like us to make up the difference in their sub par wages to at least get them on equal footing with the rest of the minimum wage earners in this country. And many of them are doing it while working P/T at other jobs (2+ jobs; count 'em!)and going to school. (Another full time job!) I don't agree with being charged 18% for a buffet, but at the same time I'm reading here that some people don't want to tip even 15% for any meal anywhere. Why? Is it because they have a sense of entitlement, or because they feel can't afford it? In my experience, some of the worst tippers were the ones that could afford it the most. You know, the ones with the strong sense of entitlement. (And that's sad.) The best tippers are ones who have had prior service industry type jobs. Why? Because they 'get it' -- it's very hard work for scant pay. As for those who can't afford it, I'm sorry, but if you can't afford to leave a decent tip for decent service, then (you may hate me for writing this) what are you doing eating out? Stay home and cook -- there's no tip expected in that scenario...JMHO... Have a magical Disney Day!
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA <Unless the service is below average, I always tip 20% as the minimum.> I tip between 15-20% -- even if it's not that great. My wife and I observe so many customers being so impolite to servers, that I feel servers deserve a good tip. We hear customers ordering their food with this: 'Yeah, gimme the burger and fries' 'Gimme?' where's the 'please'? or 'I'd like the...'? Then, when the server returns to the table to ask 'How does everything taste?', customers mumble incoherently and won't even look at them. But they'll bark out their next order. 'Can I have some ketchup?' or my favorite 'ketchup' -- just blurting out the name of the thing they want. Never a kind word. Never a 'please' -- and certainly never a 'thank you.' Sure, on occasion we'll get a server who doesn't want to be there, or who doesn't provide the service we think is 'exemplary', but I would never leave a quarter on the table to 'teach them a lesson.' That seems quite childlike. And what does it accomplish in the long run? The server is going to have a 'moment of truth' after receiving a quarter, and turn it around? Probably not. They'll continue to have a lousy day. We try to provide a good experience for the server -- chat them up a bit, ask for their advice on certain meals, introduce ourselves, -- we typically have a good time eating out at restaurants.
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA <The best tippers are ones who have had prior service industry type jobs. Why? Because they 'get it' -- it's very hard work for scant pay. As for those who can't afford it, I'm sorry, but if you can't afford to leave a decent tip for decent service, then (you may hate me for writing this) what are you doing eating out? Stay home and cook -- there's no tip expected in that scenario...JMHO... > Just read this DisneySuiteFreak. Well stated!
Originally Posted By LuLu >>I'm reading here that some people don't want to tip even 15% for any meal anywhere. Why? Is it because they have a sense of entitlement, or because they feel can't afford it?<< Hmmm. I really didn't read anyone saying they couldn't afford to tip, or begrudged servers making a decent wage. Some, myself included, don't care for the system and would prefer they were paid by their employers. Naturally, the menu prices would be higher to reflect that. In Europe, the service is included in the bill, NOT eliminated. And, Sizzler has servers that have 8% of the gross sale deducted from their pay? I thought it was a cafeteria. I guess b/c I haven't been there in decades (dreadful food). BTW, I always tip the bus help at cafeterias. (I'm thinking like Souplantation) I think that's rare, I've never noticed others doing it.
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA <I guess b/c I haven't been there in decades (dreadful food).> Same here, Lulu! We hadn't been to Sizzler in at least 15 years. We broke down and went to the one here in Merced -- has a terrific fresh, well-stocked salad bar, and for the price, very good food too. But I would imagine a Sizzler would vary by location and management and so forth.
Originally Posted By DisneySuiteFreak Lulu, I am willing to bet that most servers would agree with you that if they are going to be taxed on tips without a guarantee of receiving any, that the corporations should just pay them a decent wage and include it on the menu price. That's not going to happen. This system of taxing the working poor has been in place since the Reagan administration. While raising taxes on the working poor, they were simultaneously lowering taxes that major corporations have to pay. Unless the Feds suddenly have a wake up call or grow a conscience and decide to repeal or change that, the system won't change. It's not the corporations' fault. They are playing by the rules our Federal gov't laid out for them. Why should they have to pay a living wage if Federal law exempts them from having to do so? [Where's the sarcasm button when I need it???] That's the way it is...It's far from perfect, but it's the system we live in. Until things change, these low income wage earners are dependent upon the tips they receive to make ends meet. I just think it's sad that the best tippers are usually the ones who've lived it and have worked in the service industry. Maybe we should all be a little more empathetic the next time we're in a restaurant watching that waitress earn her paltry $2.13 per hour. (Yes, some restaurants do pay more per hour, but under Federal law, they don't have to, and many, if not most, don't. That's what tips are for.) Honestly, would anyone who didn't have to ever want to work in a job like that with such little guaranteed pay? IMO, there are 4 types of customers: 1)those with a sense of entitlement, who will find fault with anything anyway and look for excuses not to tip, 2) those who have empathy because they've been there, done that, and realize what hard work it is - but still expect good service and are willing to tip generously for it, 3) those who won't tip because they can't afford it no matter how good the service is, and 4) those who won't tip, either decently or at all, because they are uneducated as to how the tipping system really works in this country. If you've never had to be a waiter, or don't live in the U.S., how would you know the way they are taxed on their earnings or how much they earn? I do expect good service when I eat out, btw, and my husband says I notice everything that could possibly be wrong. (I'm usually the one who either gets or notices the dirty fork, knife, no place setting, dirty water glass, etc.) But even that is not your server's fault. The bus people set the table. (And most likely the servers have to tip the bus people out at the end of the shift.) Usually the hostess brings out the water. (In a family dining restaurant.) The dish washers clean the dishes. I'm sorry, but I get really passionate about leaving a decent tip. Unless the service completely sucks, I always leave 20%. I leave slightly less than 15% if the service isn't good. If it's extremely horrible, I still will tip and speak with a manager before leaving. I can count the number of times I've had to do that on one hand. I am not anti corporate or anti government. My husband and I own our own businesses, and I love this country no matter how flawed it can be. (Nothing's perfect! So I do see both sides of the coin, but I don't forget where I come from. I try to balance everything out when deciding how much tip to leave. (I.E., when the food is late, unless it's cold, that's a problem with the kitchen staff, not the server.) Oh yeah, I don't know if Sizzler's automatically deducts the 8% or not, I just used them as an example of a typical chain, family type restaurant that people go to. The servers there still bring out drinks, bread, deliver our food, refill the drinks, bring out condiments, put the fixings on your baked potato, etc., so yes, I tip 20% of the total if I eat there. By doing the above, they are serving me, right?
Originally Posted By Elderp "It's not the corporations' fault. They are playing by the rules our Federal gov't laid out for them. " Just because your allowed to be a jerk doesn't mean you should be one. I think one of the reasons In and Out Burgers is so popular is because they pay their people a decent wage. Learning about Sizzler cutting their staff 8% makes me not want to go there. The problem is not the laws, the problem is the society who makes the laws. Lets face it, if everyone were to take action the laws would change, we don't because by and large we are a a society of cheapskates. I admit it myself, I tell myself constantly Wallmart is a bad place, but then I look at their prices and.... Anyhow, I don't have a solution and I guess that makes me part of the problem. I still think making the customer subsidize your workers is really dumb.
Originally Posted By berol I'm not any of the 4 customer types. I come closest to #2. --- "Learning about Sizzler cutting their staff 8% makes me not want to go there." "Oh yeah, I don't know if Sizzler's automatically deducts the 8% or not, I just used them as an example of a typical chain, family type restaurant that people go to." --- "I still think making the customer subsidize your workers is really dumb." In a tipless restaurant, they'd have to hire an extra manager to supervise wait staff customer interaction (or let the level of service decline). Tips give the supervisorial job to customers at no cost to the restaurant or your bill. Tips make the most sense with taxi drivers in that respect, can't put a supervisor in every cab.
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 I was told someplaces (Denny's in particular) charge the waitress for the meals she serves. So if a customer skips without paying, she not only loses the tip, but she has to pay for the meal as well.
Originally Posted By Liberty Belle >>In a tipless restaurant, they'd have to hire an extra manager to supervise wait staff customer interaction (or let the level of service decline).<< Surely not if they paid their staff a good wage? If you're working at a restaurant that gives you, say, $12 an hour or more, and you knew that at other restaurants you'd get more like $2, wouldn't you give the best service possible in order to keep that job? I know I would!
Originally Posted By Liberty Belle I should add - in order to keep that job, and to possibly get promoted to an even higher pay rate.
