Originally Posted By avromark All I can say is: High costs does not equal better service. A system that favours some people over others is great, so long as you're the favoured. Every system has its downsides but if government healthcare is so bad how come the average Canadian lives longer then the average American? When you eliminate the middle man (Ie HMO's) there's a saving right there. My workplace covers my dental and optical (thank you Liberal Party for canning optical, just another great advancement by the Liberals). Does this mean my contacts are better now that I have to pay for them? Doubt it. I pay $0.00 a month for healthcare, If I get sick I owe 0.00 however if I want say an elective procedure such as plastic surgery to reduce my buttocks well then I have to pay for it. BTW one of my parents is American, so don't see this as Canadian Patriotism.
Originally Posted By DAR <<but if government healthcare is so bad how come the average Canadian lives longer then the average American? >> Because as health conscious as we think we are, we still eat fatty foods, smoke and drink.
Originally Posted By jonvn "But I've explained several times to you and I'm not going to do it again." You don't need to explain it to me. Because you're explanations are a fairy tale. I understand you work in a privately held corporation that has been in Milwaukee for 150 years. You don't seem to realize, however, that it exists in the real world, and that THINGS CAN HAPPEN that changes a situation. You're viewpoint that it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to lose your job is, again, ridiculous.
Originally Posted By jonvn But it does make it easy to think that we don't need healthcare in this country. After all, he got his.
Originally Posted By pecos bill I get the feeling that those who have their little slice of the pie regarding health care, are rather inclined to look the other way regarding this issue. Sort of a bury your head in the sand scenario, if you will. Those who understand that healthcare is a potential time bomb, and could have dire consequences regarding their future are the ones who will have to keep raising hell for reform. Dont look to the government, as most of them fall into the first categorie of complacent, well insured people who retire at 50 and live off a fat pension that gives them as much as they made while working.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh The only way to contain the costs of health care and not create a substandard system is to put the decisions in the hands of the patient - not the doctor, or the insurance, or the employer, or the government. People need to purchase their health care for themselves, so that they can determine how much care they are willing to pay for.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj ^^ So, in other words, poor people should elect to skip doctor visits altogether since they cannot afford any amount of care at all. That's a really great solution.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <So, in other words, poor people should elect to skip doctor visits altogether since they cannot afford any amount of care at all.> Everyone can afford some amount of care. There are also places where people can get free care. They just have to make an effort. It's about choices.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>People need to purchase their health care for themselves, so that they can determine how much care they are willing to pay for.<< Do you pay for your own care 100%, or do you get it through an employer?
Originally Posted By jonvn "Everyone can afford some amount of care." Yes, as long as you consider zero a level of care. Or inadequate care as some amount of care.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Everyone can afford some amount of care.<< You have any idea how much a soldier earns? And out of that, they should not only put their lives on the line, but they should pay their own way too? Nice.
Originally Posted By DAR <<And somewhat smug.>> It's not smug. I've been very fortunate to work where I do. And were I worked before there wasn't a comprehesive health care plan. But I've worked hard to get where I am. And I will not apologize for the benefits that come along with it.
Originally Posted By jonvn Which could go away tomorrow, which is the point we are trying to get across to you, but you seem to not be able to follow that your health care could evaporate on you, and you'd have nothing. That is why it is a problem for you, too.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>And I will not apologize for the benefits that come along with it.<< No one's asking you to. People are just asking you to recognize that not everyone is in the same boat as you with a job that can never, ever, possibly be taken away no matter what.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Do you pay for your own care 100%, or do you get it through an employer?> I pay for it myself.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Yes, as long as you consider zero a level of care.> Even if you don't.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I pay for it myself.<< As do I. Knowing what you pay, would you say that it is a reasonable amount, and amount that the average American could afford?
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <You have any idea how much a soldier earns? And out of that, they should not only put their lives on the line, but they should pay their own way too? Nice.> Nice strawman. I'm not suggesting that employers should cut benefits and leave pay the same. I'd like to see people receive a tax free allowance rather than be enrolled in an employer paid plan. Of course, this might work for all occupations - soldiers of course should have the best battlefront care we can afford.
Originally Posted By DAR <<Which could go away tomorrow, which is the point we are trying to get across to you, but you seem to not be able to follow that your health care could evaporate on you, and you'd have nothing.>> Fine it could happen. I will bow down to the mighty wisdom you gracious folk.
