Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <People are just asking you to recognize that not everyone is in the same boat as you with a job that can never, ever, possibly be taken away no matter what.> A good argument for having people pay for their own health care, rather than their employers or the government.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Knowing what you pay, would you say that it is a reasonable amount, and amount that the average American could afford?> Yes, if it was made tax deductible, and employers raised wages by the amount their health care cost went down.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Of course, this might work for all occupations - soldiers of course should have the best battlefront care we can afford.> Sorry, that's supposed to say "this might NOT work for all"
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Nice strawman.<< Not a strawman at all. It's an on-topic example. >>I'm not suggesting that employers should cut benefits and leave pay the same. I'd like to see people receive a tax free allowance rather than be enrolled in an employer paid plan.<< So they would, what, raise pay? Or the tax free allowance somehow offsets the cut benefits? How do you enforce this?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>A good argument for having people pay for their own health care, rather than their employers or the government.<< Um, if you have no job, it's gonna be damn tough to pay for your own healthcare.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <So they would, what, raise pay? Or the tax free allowance somehow offsets the cut benefits? How do you enforce this?> Yes, the tax free allowance would offset the cut benefits. It would be enforced through the tax code.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Um, if you have no job, it's gonna be damn tough to pay for your own healthcare.> Sure, but not impossible. People do it now, when they are in between jobs. Maybe a portion of unemployment payments, if paid, could be earmarked to the medical account.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Fine it could happen." Good. A breakthrough. Now, that you know it COULD happen (not that it is even likely, but COULD happen) what would your health care status be then? "Um, if you have no job, it's gonna be damn tough to pay for your own healthcare." What, doesn't everyone have $600 or more a month to pay for health care? This is the entire point. No one has a safe and secure health plan in this country. You lose your job, and it is simply gone.
Originally Posted By alexbook >>Everyone can afford some amount of care.<< No, they can't. A lot of Americans can't afford a minimum amount of food and shelter. Medical care is a luxury for these people. >>There are also places where people can get free care.<< Have you ever tried using one of these places? I have, and I'd like to try to describe just how horrible they are, and how difficult it is to get treated, but words are failing me. All I've got is a scream and a shudder. >>They just have to make an effort. It's about choices. << And if the choice is between getting treatment and showing up to work? Or between buying medicine and paying rent?
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh It would be wonderful if we all could have top-notch doctors on call. However, that's not realistic. Health care, like food and shelter, requires choices. Sometimes you have to decide whether you can afford a steak dinner or need to have hamburger.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Yes because you're always right." No. It's just that in this case, you are wrong.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Sometimes you have to decide whether you can afford a steak dinner or need to have hamburger." Uh, right....millions in this country have no health insurance, and many who do are under insured and can be driven to poverty because of an unexpected health crisis. Hamburger, yep. That's it.
Originally Posted By DAR Yes I am wrong. I know that my job is not safe and poof there goes my health care. I want the government to take over health care. Because we see how well they run things.
Originally Posted By alexbook >>Health care, like food and shelter, requires choices.<< Too many people aren't able to choose "hamburger." If you want to purchase some wonderful private health insurance plan that provides a top-notch doctor on call, and you can afford it, I won't stop you, but... Doesn't basic human decency require that we not allow people to die for a lack of money?
Originally Posted By jonvn No, it's not 100% safe. That you think so is ridiculous. That you can't seem to understand this at all without resorting to this behavior is indicative that you can't follow what is being said to you. "I want the government to take over health care. Because we see how well they run things" And has been said to you: What is going on now, with private industry running it is inadequate, unless you are wealthy. You're not, and you can stop acting like you are.
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka <<Uh, right....millions in this country have no health insurance>> Must be all of the steak they are eating.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>It would be wonderful if we all could have top-notch doctors on call. However, that's not realistic. Health care, like food and shelter, requires choices. Sometimes you have to decide whether you can afford a steak dinner or need to have hamburger.<< But we're not talking about choosing between steak and hamburger. It's for too many a choice between hamburger OR health care. We're talking about the economic reality that there are millions of Americans right now without health care of any kind. They simply cannot afford it.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Doesn't basic human decency require that we not allow people to die for a lack of money?> Of course, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about how best to ensure that people are able to get reasonably good healt care.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <It's for too many a choice between hamburger OR health care. We're talking about the economic reality that there are millions of Americans right now without health care of any kind. They simply cannot afford it.> And again, the best way to make it affordable is not to have the government take it over, but give consumers more power over it. There are thousands of Americans right now that can't afford food and shelter. Is the best way to deal with that a government-ration system? That's been tried, and it didn't work too well.
