Originally Posted By TDR_Fan <<attractions like Indy (which is inferior to the DL original IMO)>> In my opinion, both have large flaws. Disneyland's version suffers from overusing cheap and painted flats, while DisneySea's version suffers from the soundtrack cut off in the main chamber/snake room. The rat room in Disneyland's version is very lame and redundant; it doesn't hold a candle to the smoke ring effect in the Crystal Skull version. Not to mention it doesn't work half the time. And the dart corridor...one of the lamest sections in the Disneyland version. The flat cardboard look of the skeletons highly detracts from the detailed theming in the previous chambers. DisneySea's dart corridor is far better, with three dimensional stone carvings. I love both versions, but the more elaborate theming and superior special effects (Crystal Skull, giant vortex, laser eyebeam in main chamber, smoke ring, etc) in DisneySea's version edges it over Disneyland's version for me. Oh, and the incredible Aztec pyramid is far more impressive than Disneyland's small Indian temple. However, the pyro and Chamber of Destiny in Disneyland's make it a close comparison.
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan <<I think OLC should use you in their marketing. I have never encountered anyone that ranks 20k in their Top 10 before. In fact I've never even heard anyone describe it as "good" or better before.>> I have. Frankly, I don't have any issues with it. I think it's tons better than the new Submarine Voyage in Disneyland (which I finally checked out last week!). The queue is very detailed, as are all the sets in the attraction. The score is also one of the most sweeping and majestic in any Disney attraction, though subtle. Many people miss out on the neat details in the ride vehicle, such as the oxygen dial going down slowly as you traverse through the show scenes. The depth meter also goes down accordingly to the environment of the sets; I love how the meter suddenly goes up after you are raised to the surface by the Atlantians. Amazing attention to detail.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I think it's tons better than the new Submarine Voyage in Disneyland>> Whoa. Now I do know that our tastes are wildly divergent. 20k isn't even in the same league as Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage for me. It is a class apart. << Amazing attention to detail.>> Like a lot of TDS: at the expense of compelling storytelling and a cohesive through-line. I don't want to ride 20k to look at a dial whizzing around. I want to see an immersive environment and 20k hasn't got it.
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan <<Whoa. Now I do know that our tastes are wildly divergent. 20k isn't even in the same league as Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage for me. It is a class apart.>> Surprising since many Disneyland fans were disappointed by the Submarine Voyage. Too many cartoonish projections for me. It was like watching the movie again, literally. Not impressive and not what I want to see on an adventure. And I agree that the two attractions are a class apart. I think 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea is far better . <<Like a lot of TDS: at the expense of compelling storytelling and a cohesive through-line. I don't want to ride 20k to look at a dial whizzing around. I want to see an immersive environment and 20k hasn't got it.>> For me it does. I think the highly detailed sets and show scenes make for a far more immersive environment than the cartoonish, movie like projections of the Submarine Voyage.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Too many cartoonish projections for me.>> Er, it is themed to Nemo. You did get that, right? And that awful and cheesy end sequence in 20k with the projection of the Atlanteans is better, how? We must know very different people as I haven't encountered anyone that wasn't impressed by the technology and its application. It is incredibly effective for most people.
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan <<Er, it is themed to Nemo. You did get that, right? And that awful and cheesy end sequence in 20k with the projection of the Atlanteans is better, how?>> LOL. I find it very funny that you chose to compare one minor projection, which is very subtely done by the way, to the Nemo projections (which are a huge part of the storyline). I think the cartoonish and flat look of the Nemo projections much more cheesy than the shadows of the Atlantians. <<We must know very different people as I haven't encountered anyone that wasn't impressed by the technology and its application. It is incredibly effective for most people.>> Clearly, we do. The majority of the threads I've read indicate that this attraction was disappointing and relied too much on cheap projections rather than detailed show pieces. I found it highly detracting and much prefer the Jules Verne theming and storyline of 20,000 League Under the Sea. But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, huh?
Originally Posted By The Goddess Mara TDR_FAN, please stop with the comments about the "painted flats" already. The bulk of ancient artwork in temples and pyramids are wall PAINTINGS. Not carvings. I'm mystified how anyone could think that the Indy ride in Tokyo DisneySea is superior to the original. It's just not, plain and simple. You're entitled to your opinion of course, just as Lee is entitled to think that 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea is lousy--and believe me, that mystifies me as well. I enjoyed the new Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage in Disheyland, but 20,000 Leagues is an entirely immersive experience that's completely convincing: it's entirely succesful. The sub ride in DisneyLand has never--to me--been successful in its illusion of diving down into the ocean. You can see the surface of the water right above you, the submarine's don't tilt nose down, there's no sense of descent except some bubbles in your porthole. 20,000 Leagues offers a truly successful illusion in all of these aspects, and it's DRY. I do agree with Lee that DisneySea is short on rides, and that's a problem because it makes the lines at all the existing rides longer than they should be. When I go to the Tokyo Disney Resort, I always end up spending more time at Tokyo Disneyland--and that makes sense since there's so much more to do.
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan Don't get me wrong. I love both versions very much. There was a time when I just couldn't pick a favorite. If you've noticed, I tend to switch favorites from time to time based on which one I've recently experienced; they are both extremely impressive and amazing attractions. And I think stone carvings make more sense in an Aztec pyrmaid, just as wall paintings make more sense in a small Indian temple. I just don't like the flat look of the dart corridor, but I *love* the murals in the Fountain of Eternal Youth chamber. And I completely agree with your assessment of 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. It's always been an entirely immersive and successful attraction for me. I have also mentioned the lack of attractions compared to the Magic Kingdoms at Tokyo DisneySea. It's gotten better with Raging Spirits and Tower of Terror, enough for a full day. I find the repeatability of the attractions very high, so it's easy for me to spend the bulk of my trip there.
Originally Posted By Malin The Goddess Mara:I do agree with Lee that DisneySea is short on rides, and that's a problem because it makes the lines at all the existing rides longer than they should be. When I go to the Tokyo Disney Resort, I always end up spending more time at Tokyo Disneyland--and that makes sense since there's so much more to do. Can I say I too totally agree with what the The Goddess Mara just wrote above.
Originally Posted By barboy "I have never encountered anyone that ranks 20k in their Top 10 before. In fact I've never even heard anyone describe it as "good" or better before." Yes you have.....(me) Disney Sea has my top 5 of my all time 10 favorite attractions of any park anywhere--- 4 out of my top 6 even! So it should be pretty obvious why I find that park easily the best in the world--- and if one throws in park-wide architecture and eats it kills off any other park as far as I'm concerned. 1 JTTCE 2 Pirates (Dl Paris) 3 IJ 4 Phantom Manor(Dl Paris) 5 20k-- I love it! Just too much to take in; even after 4 consecutive rides I'm still seeing new stuff. 6 TOT 7 Pirates(Dl Anaheim) 8 Splash Mnt(Dl Tokyo) 9 Space Mnt(Dl Anaheim) 10 Sindbad and Nemo (Dl Anaheim)
Originally Posted By barboy So Dis. Sea is short on attractions, no big deal because just about everything there is epic to me---quality over quantity any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Originally Posted By barboy "Disney Sea has my top 5 of my all time 10 favorite attractions" Let's try that again: Disney Sea has 5 of my top 10 attractions of any park.
Originally Posted By barboy " I don't want to ride 20k to look at a dial whizzing around." I do, oh boy do I! You see it's those little details piled up that make the experience grand and lasting. I would rather ride in a "teravator" and experience the "noise", buttons, devices, rivets, rust and dials which give us the illusion and feel of dropping deep into the earth back in the 1800's than doing some stupid, cliche, inane, Mickey head loop on DCA's Cal Sceamin.
Originally Posted By The Goddess Mara I hate making lists--having a good time at a Disney park isn't about making a contest out of which rides are the best. How can I choose between Pirates of the Caribbean and the Indiana Jones Adventure in Disneyland? I don't, and I shouldn't have to. If I'm at Tokyo DisneySea and riding Indiana Jones and Temple of the Crystal Skull, I don't sit there lamenting the parts of the ride which don't compare to Indy in Disneyland--I just enjoy the damn ride I happen to be on at that time. I'll give you another example. Whether I'm riding Test Track at Epcot or Journey to the Center of the Earth in DisneySea, I enjoy them both. Of course Journey to the Center of the Earth is a better ride: it's more interesting, it has higher repeatability, and it has something inside the building other than some fake road signs and a couple of dummies on a TV monitor pretending to test your vehicle. Journey to the Center of the Earth is an attraction of imagination in the truest sense. Test Track, with the exception of the final spin around the building, is mundane by comparison. However, I don't get bogged down in that type of thinking when I'm in Epcot. I go and Test Track and enjoy it full.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<There was an interesting post on a different thread by karlg recently that totally echoed my viewpoint on the park's attraction roster: weak at best. Can't for the life of me remember which one it was but it made for interesting reading. >> Lee, that was my 'Where has all the magic gone?' on the WDW Board ... Good to know you're reading ... not quite sure how it fit because the thread was really only about WDW's MK ... but Karl did bring some interesting points up. I didn't like him dissing DAK though! <<Soarin' would definitely help. My concern would be that it isn't enough.>> On a similar subject, there was talk of Soarin going into DSP. Is there any truth to that? It seemed to come out at the same time people were jumping on the PhilharMagic replacing MuppetVision at DCA, which no one that I know has ever heard of. Is Soarin at DSP just fanboy drool? Blue-sky? Or realistic?
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan << I didn't like him dissing DAK though!>> Neither did I, nor did I enjoy his unfavorable opinions of the attraction roster at Tokyo DisneySea. I respect everyone's opinions, but this is just one of the things that I can't seem to grasp or comprehend. Much like when people insist that Disneyland is a much better designed park than Disneyland Paris, when it's obviously not. I appreciate people offering insight and different sides to a topic, but some are just downright dismaying in my opinion.
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan <<So Dis. Sea is short on attractions, no big deal because just about everything there is epic to me---quality over quantity any day of the week and twice on Sunday.>> I agree completely. And even still, I feel there's more to do at Tokyo DisneySea than any other non-Magic Kingdom park. And maybe Epcot (because of World Showcase) for the shopping and dining enthusiasts, though you can arguably do the same thing at any Disney park. Toyko DisneySea has the most appeal for me out of the Disney parks, even more so than the Magic Kingdoms. <You see it's those little details piled up that make the experience grand and lasting.>> You bet. And no Disney park does those little details better than Tokyo DisneySea. Phenomenal attention to detail everywhere.
Originally Posted By leemac <<On a similar subject, there was talk of Soarin going into DSP. Is there any truth to that? It seemed to come out at the same time people were jumping on the PhilharMagic replacing MuppetVision at DCA, which no one that I know has ever heard of. Is Soarin at DSP just fanboy drool? Blue-sky? Or realistic?>> PhilharMagic couldn't fit in the MuppetVision building. It is just too big. I've no idea why people would hit on that one. Soarin' was being considered for each resort at one stage (much like ToT). There aren't any concrete plans that I know of. There are a lot of Soarin' champions at WDI though so as long as they are there I'd expect it to pop up again somewhere else. The vesatility of the format makes it virtually limitless in its potential applications. Cory Sewelson is working up some ideas for DL itself in Paris and I suspect there will be something greenlighted for that park in the near future.
Originally Posted By leemac <<"I have never encountered anyone that ranks 20k in their Top 10 before. In fact I've never even heard anyone describe it as "good" or better before." Yes you have.....(me)>> I don't think I know you or have read that before barboy. I'm amazed frankly. Journey really has a botched execution for me. Tremendous build-up with the queue and the terravators (although they are as convincing as the hydrolators were - the original plan called for more SFX in the elevators themselves) and then the exit into the load which is pretty stunning. A great ride vehicle design with controlled viewing is then your conveyance. But then the whole thing comes apart. No real storyline (certainly nothing close to what Verne actually conceived). Some sets that are cool in a 3D way but with so very little to look at. I don't want to see just rock formations. And there isn't any real suspense. A flashing red light and some incredibly loud noises don't cut it for me. We are supposed to be off course and you can see the correct path immediately. I'm amazed they didn't try a more claustrophobic execution of this story segment. I just expected more "life" on the journey. The lava monster is pretty good. But size doesn't make up for a lack of experience. I just end up looking at his torso stuck there rigid in the ground. I can't understand why they didn't create something more fully formed like the dragon at DLP. It just feels all too cheesy. The Yeti is an amazing AA - fully realized and you just get enough of a glimpse to make you come back (which was always the intention). The lava monster flooded in light just doesn't add a great deal of suspense or fear for me (especially when you don't suddenly come across him - he is literally just around the corner). Then the thrill is minor and the attraction is over. It really is an attraction of so much promise but was half-baked like a lot of the attractions at TDS (don't get me started on the disaster that is StormRider - unoriginal and painfully poor SFX - and good friends of mine wrote and produced that one). I know OLC want the attraction out of there at the first opportunity as it is an incredible drain on the park's maintenance budget. I suspect it will go to a conventional roller coaster track eventually. Anyhow I'm glad someone adores it. The thought that some find it is better than HM, POTC or Splash though really makes me wonder....
Originally Posted By leemac Ultimately I appreciate it is different strokes for different folks but I've been talking to a few people recently about TDS and I think I'm beginning to understand what my perceived problem with the park is. It all comes down to the talent that was involved. The biggest failing of the park is the execution of the attractions. Rides like Aquatopia, Journey, 20k, etc. failed me for as they are little more than superficial extravagancies. Very flashy but just lacking in substance. Aquatopia is the perfect example. They didn't even bother with a storyline. It was all about the visual. That is fine when you have an Astro Orbitor or a Dumbo but the money dumped into that lagoon should have yielded a more unique and repeatable experience. As I keep going back to my argument about TDS being a MK clone this attraction is the perfect example - it was all about kinetic energy which is the hallmark of Tomorrowland. I have the upmost respect for the Kirks and their achievements but the problem is that they created the park as an elaborate movie set. Steeped in as much realism as possible (a major failing for me here - this isn't the real world like DAK). It is no wonder that both were instrumental in both the expansion of D-MGM and the failed DMSPE concept. The problem was that WDI didn't bring established show writers into the project to help bolster their incredible visual eye candy (in both interiors and exteriors). There just isn't that "whimsy" as I keep referring to it. I've always been drawn to story and TDS is just woefully lacking for me. It does feel like a movie set from the '50s (you expect to see Charlton Heston walk around the corner at any point) designed to be permanent which is great if your sole focus during a day at a Disney theme park is about the visuals. However I do like to get in attractions and I'd have to be honest that there are very few (well, period in the park!) that really capture my imagination. That isn't helped by a very dour and dark atmosphere. There just isn't that sense of wonder and discovery that I get elsewhere. Particularly at Epcot and DAK. Anyhow each to their own I guess.
