Originally Posted By Mr X **likes of Joe Rohde or Kathy Rogers. I happen to think it inally) namely Rick Rothchild and Kevin Rafferty. I als** Wow, you try to refute the argument and drop 4 names in the process! Are you trying to tell us how "special" you are or something? **I also know most of the team behind TDS (even though most are no longer with the Company)** Yet another passive agressive shot at the park, and the people that built the place! Dude, you've got one hell of a vendetta going on here (even if you and your partner don't want to admit it). I can only assume most aren't with the company anymore because they didn't "build on a budget" and the company wants that, and nothing but that, going forward. But what do I know? I don't have any names to drop whatsoever (nor do I really care).
Originally Posted By Mr X **I'll listen to the, "it's too short" or "what's up with that painted flat of the correct route" arguments but a partially submerged creature? Sorry, but taking issue with that is beyond flimsy.** As was already pointed out, this guy will find anything and everything negative about the park and gleefully write all about it, that's how much he (and his partner) really hate the place. To each his own, I suppose.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo C'mon guys, every one is entitled to their own opinion. I know you all take pot shots at me for liking DCA and WDS!!! I cannot comment on TDS having not yet expereienced it. But based on my wide reading, my initial impressions is it is like a Super Model, lot's to look at, but the substance level can vary dependent on tastes. If you want a high number count of attraction, or character laden attractions, go elsewhere. If you want to kick back and drink in the details, enjoy live entertainment, and pretend to be somewhere else, TDS is a great park. Personally, I can happy spend 8 days of an 11 day WDW visit at Epcot and DAK, or equal time between DCA and DL, so I am very much looking forward to making up my own mind. But also knowing Lee and Lindsay, I credit their opinion as well (though we do not always see eye to eye) I very much respect their very informed opinions. There is no perfect Disney park yet, but I am looking forward to the Japanese take on things.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< I'm not going to address the bias comment specifically but on a general basis. >>> I'll take an educated guess that you were responding to my post #69. <<< I absolutely refute that notion. I am not here to peddle anyone else's opinion or the Company's line. >>> I think you may have mis-understood the point I was trying to make. If so, it was most likely because I didn't explain myself very well, and for that, I'm sorry. I don't think that when you post on LP that you're trying to promote the company line, do anyone else's bidding, or for that matter do much of anything other than state your own personal opinion, just like anyone else. So, I don't think you have any more of a bias than anyone else that has a personal opinion. Here's perhaps something more to the point of what I was trying to say: I think that sometimes you're too close to the situation to see some of the broad patterns. There may be a term for what I'm trying to describe, but I don't know what it is. It's in the neighborhood of "corporate culture" or "institutional thinking" but perhaps closer to being a more localized, particular notion. Whatever the term for what I'm trying to describe is, these things can take on a life of their own sometimes. I've seen this happen many times in the business world, both from an "inside the notion" perspective where I later realize what was really going on and from an "outside the notion" perspective where it's painfully obvious to everyone except those caught up inside whatever the situation is. I know that this is a whole field of study in psychology, and that it's increasingly being applied in business settings, including that MBA programs often have some amount of coursework on this subject (gee, perhaps if I read some of the study materials I'd know what the proper terms are ). More to the point, the amount of damage that can be done in organizations by the wrong notion is enormous, and in many cases, the people involved don't even realize what's going on. I could probably go on at length on this subject, but in a lot of ways it's quite a bit more abstract than "I like/dislike XYZ Disney attraction because ..." so I don't know that this is the right venue. <<< The reason I happen to think Everest is a tour de force has nothing to do with the fact that I have any sort of relationship (whether perceived or actual) with the likes of Joe Rohde or Kathy Rogers. I happen to think it is a great attraction. >>> You'll get no argument from me. I think EE is one of the best things to come out of WDI in recent years. And I think that on multiple levels: just as a care-free guest, it's a great attraction. And, as a Disney fan that wants to see more of this type of thing in the parks, I'm happy that this was accomplished for what I understand is a relatively modest amount for a big-iron immersive E-ticket attraction.
Originally Posted By Mr X Interesting stuff, SD, and I'm looking forward to Lee's reply. To give a vivid example of how this sort of thing "can" cause massive damage ("can" in quotes because I'm not saying this applies to Lee, or necessarily Disney), one need only look at the homebuilding and lending industry in America today. This is ENRON on a multi-industry scale. And it was obvious to all of us on the outside looking in months and months ago but those on the inside just could not see this simple, simple fact. It's not a good idea to sell million dollar mansions to paupers and speculators with little money and no collateral. That's the extremely simplified version, but when you boil it down, that's what happened. And now we see entire industries in shambles (they're finally actually ADMITTING it these past few weeks), because they couldn't understand the stupidity and hubris of these actions. Totally skewed groupthink gone awry. (and it's sort of similar to my point about Disney insisting on pointing out 101 reasons why the cheap parks ain't doing so well, when reason number 102 is staring them in the face (customers don't really want to flock to cheap looking Disney products)...and it's not even lies because I believe that they really BELIEVE what they're saying, just as the mortgage companies and builders did!) I didn't want to write a 10 page essay here (I easily could), so please pardon the extremely simplified and watered-down version.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I think that sometimes you're too close to the situation to see some of the broad patterns. >> Gotcha and I didn't pick that up from your previous comments. That is likely to be true. When I see a final product I'm often thinking about how it got there and who was responsible.
Originally Posted By Mr X >>That is likely to be true. When I see a final product I'm often thinking about how it got there and who was responsible.<< That's a very cool reply, and much appreciated. I'm sure most react this way when they're involved in the projects or the people to some extent...I know that my take on entertainment where I am directly involved or know the people involved can hardly be called "unbiased", even though I try to be. So, since I've already talked to DavewasBaloo about this...as a U.K. guy what do you think of the housing thing in America?
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 Everyone is biased. It's part of the human condition. And it can result from working closely with people. I know I give some people I work with a bit more leeway in judging their work because ... well, they're quality people (the most important thing in anything IMHO)! I am sure Lee is biased. He can't help but be. Just like I am. Just like SuperDry or TDLFAN or Mr X or anyone ... I feel I can seperate the Imagineer from the project as well. I think Joe Rohde is the closest thing to an artistic genius WDI has now. I love Everest. But it has a few flaws ... some that could easily be fixed. I don't hide that from Joe. And I happen to strongly dislike one of his Epcot projects, Maelstrom, although to be fair ... a lot of the budget was slashed on that. I like and respect Tim Delaney. Yet I can't believe the same man who brought DLP's amazing Discoveryland to life, also is largely responsible for Paradise Pier at DCA. Again, I know they were different circumstances, but one is just so amazing and the other ... well, to be kind (and in case Tim's reading) isn't. I also like Rick Rothchild personally, but have major issues with many of his projects ... Stitch's Great Escape is embarrassingly bad to me ... and I love Stitch. I also think Tony Baxter and Tom Fitzgerald (the dueling divas of Glendale) to be very talented. I happen to think very little of either of them both personally and professionally. So we all have biases. I get the feeling Lee doesn't get treated as well by the OLC as he does by TWDC. Does that contaminate his opinions? I can't say. I have been treated like absolute dirt by some Disney execs (no, I won't name them here. They're insecure enough to be reading this anyway) at two of the three resorts I visit regularly, but that doesn't poison my views on the resorts (the people are a different story!) I think I beat Lee on the name-dropping ... but at least I didn't do it in that oh-so pompous British way ;-)
Originally Posted By leemac <<I get the feeling Lee doesn't get treated as well by the OLC as he does by TWDC.>> Honestly that couldn't be further from the truth. OLC are very gracious and a tremendous organization to work with. Considerably more flexible and accommodating than TWDC to be honest.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<Disneyland's version suffers from overusing cheap and painted flats, while DisneySea's version suffers from the soundtrack cut off in the main chamber/snake room.>> Wow, THANK YOU, finally somebody says this too. I mentioned this several times before about TDS` flaw and ironically mentioned this to Mr. X just yesterday. Yeah, it is a HUGE flaw IMO and one I noticed just the few days I rode it again.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<I think it's tons better than the new Submarine Voyage in Disneyland>> <<Whoa. Now I do know that our tastes are wildly divergent. 20k isn't even in the same league as Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage for me. It is a class apart.>> LOL, where the hell do you come up with this stuff??? Sorry I`m late to the party, but someone who just been on both on them recently about a week apart from them, 20K leagues kicks Nemo butt up and down the ocean!! Do I like Nemo, definitely, but it doesn`t come close to the amount of details, sets and imagination of 20K. Granted, not everyone likes 20K, I know, but its an adult ride, the one submarine voyage USE to be and the ride vehicles alone kicks the 1950`s DL subs any day. And uh, yeah, the queue, nuff said , They are BOTH great attractions, but it amazes me over and over again how great DL is and how bad TDLR is in your head considering 20K is one of the most immersive and story filled rides to come out of the company since Indy.
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan <<20K is one of the most immersive and story filled rides to come out of the company since Indy.>> Journey to the Center of the Earth too.
Originally Posted By Mr X **LOL, where the hell do you come up with this stuff??? Sorry I`m late to the party, but someone who just been on both on them recently about a week apart from them, 20K leagues kicks Nemo butt up and down the ocean!!** Crap, now I have to go BACK to Anaheim again, just so I can find another reason to disagree with Lee? Bad enough I had to book a trip to Orlando in December (not too cheap from Asia) so I can get filled in on the new stuff and why it doesn't hold a candle to the Tokyo Disney Resort. I'm guessing from the rest of WD's comments, and Lee and TDR_Fan too, that the big "divergence" comes from some of us looking at the "total package" (something Disneyland fans LOVE to talk about re Indy...the fact that the whole experience, right as you walk in, and not only "the ride itself" is just a great vibe and very "Disney"...something that makes me prefer Pirates in ORLANDO to the other ones believe it or not). I share some of Lee's unhappiness with Journey once the ride begins...it's very good but not "OMG! AWSOME!", like I wish it was...but to me that one and 20,000 AND Stormrider (yes, I like it alot!) and all the other DisneySea stuff have a very polished, detailed, DISNEY feel to me...something I found lacking at DCA and VERY lacking at Hong Kong Disneyland (Space, meh...Jungle Cruise, meh (ride okay, queue nothing, no setup...plus short and you can see practically everything from the line unlike the others)), what else is there in Hong Kong again?
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan You are correct Mr X. For me, the experience of any attraction begins at the entrance of the attraction. In the case of Journey to the Center of the Earth and 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, the experience starts as soon as I enter Mysterious Island. The overall immersion and detail of the setting and attraction (entryway, queue, ride, exit area, etc) is what makes both Journey to the Center of the Earth and 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea my personal favorites. Other than Indiana Jones Adventure and Tower of Terror (which are also among my top favorites), I feel that no other attraction has even begun to approach this level of scale and detail in their execution.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>the fact that the whole experience, right as you walk in, and not only "the ride itself" is just a great vibe and very "Disney"...something that makes me prefer Pirates in ORLANDO to the other ones believe it or not).<<< You must get yourself to DLP. It is the best as it has the awesome treasure Isle outside, a spanish fort holds the queue, and the attraction is more akin to DL's with more advanced AA's.
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan <<You must get yourself to DLP. It is the best as it has the awesome treasure Isle outside, a spanish fort holds the queue, and the attraction is more akin to DL's with more advanced AA's.>> It's definitely the best setting in my opinion, though I do have a soft spot for the New Orleans setting of Disneyland's. But the build up/execution is just so much better in Disneyland Paris.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney Yeah, I'm with you guys there. POTC queue at DLP really out does itself .
