Originally Posted By CrouchingTigger A couple of interesting quotes from the wikipedia article at <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G eneral_Motors_EV1</a> GM never offered the EV1 for sale, it was only leased under special conditions that removed the purchase option from the lease. All the 650 1997 (lead acid battery) EV1s were leased and all the 465 1999 (Nickel Metal Hydride battery, or NiMH) EV1s were leased. No more were ever built; the only question was who would lease the already-built EV1. There was never a time when an EV1 could not find a willing lessee. The most successful EV ever made, the Toyota RAV4-EV, is still active in California in fleet and individual use, still running on the original pre-2002 Nickel Metal Hydride batteries and still retaining a range over 100 miles. Most other EVs produced under the prodding of the ZEV Mandate were only issued on leases, and all have been destroyed by the lessor. According to GM Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner, the worst decision of his tenure at GM was "axing the EV1 electric-car program and not putting the right resources into hybrids. It didn’t affect profitability, but it did affect image."[20] According to the March 13, 2007 issue of Newsweek, "GM R&D chief Larry Burns . . . now wishes GM hadn't killed the plug-in hybrid EV1 prototype his engineers had on the road a decade ago: 'If we could turn back the hands of time,' says Burns, 'we could have had the Chevy Volt 10 years earlier.'"
Originally Posted By peeaanuut <<The requirements were levied by the state of California and applied to every automobile manufacturer in the state>> actually not true. The law was initially written in such a way that it only effected GM and its holdings. Now the law has been altered and effect just about all auto manufacturers but at the time it was quite biased. And you wrong about the entire automotive lobby trying to get it changed. There is a small handful of automotive groups attempting to get it changed. Also the electic vehicle was replaced mostly by the hybrid as it was much easier to get consumers to change to that type of vehicle vs a fully electic vehicle. (while still not being as effective as it should it is much better than a fully electic vehicle)
Originally Posted By mrichmondj << actually not true. The law was initially written in such a way that it only effected GM and its holdings. Now the law has been altered and effect just about all auto manufacturers but at the time it was quite biased. >> Nope. Actually quite true. In fact, the law doesn't even exist anymore, although you seem to believe it does. It was rescinded when the California Air Resources Board got a sales pitch on hydrogen vehicles and decided to throw all of their effort at that initiative. They gave up on electric vehicles for a "solution" with no way ahead for an actual production vehicle, no infrastrucure to support any proposed vehicles, and energy efficiency that pales in comparison to all electric vehicles. << Also the electic vehicle was replaced mostly by the hybrid as it was much easier to get consumers to change to that type of vehicle vs a fully electic vehicle. (while still not being as effective as it should it is much better than a fully electic vehicle) >> Hybrid vehicles came about because the federal government paid the bill for developing the technology. It was part of a consortium funded during the Clinton administration. All the automakers participated, but only Toyota carried the work forward into a production model initially. Consumers had nothing to do with the fact that hybrids exist today instead of all-electrics. Uncle Sam pretty much pushed the automakers in that direction with tax breaks and direct federal funding to develop those specific vehicles.
Originally Posted By peeaanuut YOu believe that the Clean Air Act and Energy Policy act are not in existance anymore? hmmm. Interesting. <<Hybrid vehicles came about because the federal government paid the bill for developing the technology. It was part of a consortium funded during the Clinton administration. All the automakers participated, but only Toyota carried the work forward into a production model initially.>> accept for the 150million that Honda spent on the same exact project and developed the first production hybrid available to the market. Cant forget about them ya know.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj << accept for the 150million that Honda spent on the same exact project and developed the first production hybrid available to the market. Cant forget about them ya know. >> Honda didn't take their hybrid technology from the government consortium project. Toyota did leverage the technology developed there -- one of the reasons why Toyota hybrids tend to be a little more sophisticated in how they operate.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj << YOu believe that the Clean Air Act and Energy Policy act are not in existance anymore? hmmm. Interesting. >> I know that the requirements for all automakers to sell a percentage of ZEVs in the state of California do not exist anymore. You are talking about something completely different.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj From today's news (4/3/07): " Toyota said March sales of cars and light trucks in the U.S. jumped 12% amid strong sales of its Toyota and Lexus hybrid vehicles. The Japanese auto maker said it sold 242,675 vehicles in March, compared with 217,286 a year ago." All of the Detroit based auto companies posted sales declines.
Originally Posted By peeaanuut what percentage of that was fleet sales? Compare that number to a company that doesnt include fleet sales.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj Give me an example of a major auto company that doesn't include fleet sales.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder FWIW, when you buy a car from a dealer going through a site such as Edmunds or AutoBytel, you are usually hooked up with the fleet manager when you indicate you want to be contacted by the dealer. If you purchase, that's reported as a fleet sale.
Originally Posted By peeaanuut Honda (which does not do fleet sales as fleet sales and conciders each purchase by a large organization an individual purchase) Nissan and Mitsubishi also have the same policy.
Originally Posted By peeaanuut <<If you purchase, that's reported as a fleet sale.>> Correct, but Honda, Mitsubishi and Nissan do not fluff their sales by counting those sales. of course they do them, but they do not count them the same as other companies, such at Toyota and Chevrolet.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Correct, but Honda, Mitsubishi and Nissan do not fluff their sales by counting those sales. of course they do them, but they do not count them the same as other companies, such at Toyota and Chevrolet." How do you know? I've been told otherwise over time.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj OK, so Honda's sales rose by 11% for the month of March. Not significantly less or more than Toyota. I don't get your point. My point is that, counter to some statements made in this topic, consumers will buy alternative fueled vehicles at a premium price if the products are offered. Toyota seems to be proving that theory. Their sales and profits are both rising while other auto manufacturers are struggling to stay out of negative territory. Of course, consumers are encouraged to purchase more fuel efficient vehicles when gas prices are above $3 a gallon in some parts of the country, but it still demonstrates that there is a market for these sorts of vehicles -- even when the big oil lobby and Detroit will tell you that there isn't.
Originally Posted By peeaanuut I never said there wasnt a market, but it is such a niche market and definately not main stream.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh Toyota sales are up mostly because their stake in the big truck market has increased, not because their cars do more to stop global warming.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj Not according to the Wall Street Journal: Tuesday's Headline: "UPDATE: Toyota US March Sales Up 12%, Helped By Hybrids" The opening sentence: "Toyota Motor Corp. (TM) said March sales of cars and light trucks in the U.S. jumped 12% amid strong sales of its Toyota and Lexus hybrid vehicles." Further into the article: "Toyota and other Japanese car companies are increasingly using discounts and rebates to maintain momentum. Toyota is relying on incentives to spur demand for its new Tundra pick-up truck." Maybe my reading comprehension skills are weak, but that doesn't sound anything to me like the reasoning in post 56. The full article here: <a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20070403-714748-H1qaKTT6bqEV5yPiS7OYzx8yBwI_20080405.html?mod=crnews" target="_blank">http://online.wsj.com/article/ BT-CO-20070403-714748-H1qaKTT6bqEV5yPiS7OYzx8yBwI_20080405.html?mod=crnews</a>
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh "Toyota's Tundra sold 13,196 in March, up 11.8 percent from a year ago. The redesigned Tundra — Toyota's first true full-size truck — is a sign of Toyota's ambitions in a lucrative sector dominated by American automakers." "In March, GM sold 55,626 Silverados, down 8.6 percent from a year ago. Sales of Chrysler's Dodge Ram pickup, which at five years old is aging, were down 1.1 percent to 38,301." "Ford regained from GM the claim to having the nation's top-selling pickup truck, even though F-series sales fell 15.1 percent." <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070404/ap_on_bi_ge/auto_sales" target="_blank">http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200 70404/ap_on_bi_ge/auto_sales</a> In other words, truck sales are lower for the big 3, and up for Toyota.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj ^^ Doug, why are you arguing this point? Here's a quote from the very article you linked to: "In all, Toyota Motor Corp. sold 242,675 Toyota and Lexus vehicles in the U.S., including 140,009 cars, up 19.4 percent from the same month a year ago, and 102,666 trucks, a 2.7 percent increase. So far this year, Toyota has sold 61,635 hybrids in the U.S., up 68 percent from the first three months of last year. That includes 28,453 hybrids last month. "This month marks a milestone eight years in the making," Jim Lentz, executive vice president of Toyota's U.S. division, said in a statement. "Record U.S. sales of Toyota and Lexus hybrids have now topped the half-million mark." It really is beneath you to cherry pick articles like this to find any shred of evidence to support your distorted view of the world.
