Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "Though I agree that Walt Disney wanted to tell stories, Hans, the Disney company has always been big on marketing." Apples and oranges. There's a big difference between creating a TV show that supports a project as huge as DL was in the 1950s and altering your business strategy so that everything you do supports a collection of brands. Disneyland used to be about a variety of different subjects that weren't related to "Disney". Today the place is mostly about the brands that the company produces. "The DL of today feels like part of a large corporate empire." >>In all fairness, the Disneyland of today IS a large corporate empire. It's much, much different than the Disneyland of 1955. I think the differences of Disneyland today compared with 1955 is nearly a direct response to the differences of the world in general. And how business is all about corporate empire today.<< Yes CC, and I certainly understand why Disney has taken this course. Corporations have one objective and that is to make money hand over fist. However, Disney didn't just become a corporate empire last week. It has been a huge enterprise for several decades now, yet it has been relatively recently that the parks begun to feel like giant marketing tools for everything Disney. Iger has made it his mission to boost the company's coffers with branding and it shows. Think back ten years ago when DCA opened and how few Disney character brands were present and look at it now. "It would just be rides devoted to merchandisebale properties, so basically more toons and less ideas about the future." It's going to be that anyway, so why not just start from scratch rather than reusing the same old structures?
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "The company is clearly more about channel than content." Nothing says it better than the two photos at the link showing the original Cafe Orleans' coffee bar back in the 60s and the current set up all decked out with Princess & The Frog junk. <a href="http://disneyparks.disney.go.com/blog/2010/08/a-special-treat-espresso-with-walt-disney/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+DisneyParks+%28Disney+Parks+Blog%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher" target="_blank">http://disneyparks.disney.go.c...dfetcher</a>
Originally Posted By crapshoot <<Nothing says it better than the two photos at the link showing the original Cafe Orleans' coffee bar back in the 60s and the current set up all decked out with Princess & The Frog junk.>> Nice example of the Disney Dichmody. It's so easy to refer to the "Corporate Machine" as some faceless jugernaught tearing up the core values of the Walt Disney Company. To my way of thinking the current problem was instantly created the moment Walt Disney died. Animation projects in the works lost their direction, Disneyland began to lose its focus, I can't speak for WDW but I can only imagine even its opening may have suffered without the strong creative direction. As bizzare as this next statement is, it does have some merit in today's corporate mindset: Since Walt Disney did not plan for grooming a qualified successor, the loss of so many of the original company core values over the last decades point back to that one moment of history.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "Since Walt Disney did not plan for grooming a qualified successor, the loss of so many of the original company core values over the last decades point back to that one moment of history." That's likely true, however I really don't begrudge the current management for most of the decisions they are making because they are simply doing their job to get as much money as possible out of everyone's wallet or purse that passes through the turnstiles. The playing field is far more cutthroat and competitive than it was back in 1966 and Disney has always managed to stay on top of its game, and at the moment the strategy seems to be working. It was just a few short years ago that people were wondering about the future of DCA. Judging by the response to WOC and the buzz surrounding the future character based attractions under construction, it's clear that the public (and the fans) just can't get enough of Disney branded characters as part of their experience. Oh well. I guess my only reason for pointing this stuff out is to illustrate that the lofty aspirations that Walt Disney outlined for his park have been superseded by more commercial interests. There IS a difference between the values that drove the development of DL and WDW in the past and today. It surprises me that it isn't obvious to everyone.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "Look how cute Walt looks in that picture!" I'm digging the rather chic cast member uniforms. I shudder to think what they wear now.
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance <a href="http://dlr2.wdpromedia.com/media/dlr_nextgen/CoreCatalog/Disneyland/en_us/Media/InternetMediaType/Dining/cafe-orleans_thumb.jpg" target="_blank">http://dlr2.wdpromedia.com/med...humb.jpg</a> Here is a hansome cast member in uniform at the Cafe.
Originally Posted By Moondoggie Well, whatever Disney is or isn't doing nowadays, there sure are a lot of people on here (myself included) looking back in time, rather than forward in time. This tells me that something has definitely changed at the park, and within the infrastructure of the company. Whatever they had going on in the mid/late 60s through the early 80s was working, at least at the parks. I would be interested to see if there was as much negative debating going on when Tomorrowland reopened in the late 60s. Were there as many people questioning the direction the park was going in at that time as there are today? Somehow I doubt it. Even today, many of us are talking about how great it was! And I would like to think that the company heads would take that into consideration. Unfortunately though, while Walt and his "Nine Old Men" were tapped into something pretty great, I just don't get the sense that the contemporary group has that same interest, or maybe even ability. I mean, is that why the company has reached out to the Star Wars, Indiana Jones, and now, Marvel franchises? It does seem to be more about the quickest way to make the most money nowadays. Oh well, I guess it's something that enough people want, so they'll keep feeding the new trend. I doubt things will change much. Amazing though, by comparison, to see how many of us on here aren't so much in agreement with some of these new trends.
Originally Posted By Yookeroo "Whatever they had going on in the mid/late 60s through the early 80s was working, at least at the parks." The post-Walt/pre-Eisner time might have been the worst era of the park.
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance "Here is a hansome cast member in uniform at the Cafe." I meant to say HANDSOME.
Originally Posted By Manfried I think many people are stuck in a time warp. Folks who used to be about changing things now want things to remain the same. Sigh. Sad.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 I think many people aren't opposed to change if it actually is change for the better. Change for change's sake. Change for WDI egos to be stroked. Change to save money. Change that simply adds toons and THE DISNEY BRAND to everything. That's not change this Spirit can believe in. ~Sideshow Spirit~
Originally Posted By Manfried But Disneyland is and was about branding. Why do you think the original television show was called "Disneyland?" Me thinks many are arguing about change because they either don't really want it, or want time to stand still. Don't try to paint all of this with some kind of noble calling. Disney parks are a business. Yes, Walt had the idea to build something different, but he was also counting on his brother's smarts to make sure it worked out as a way to grow into a good business. And that's what it is, a business, not a religion. You want religion, go to a church, any church. You want entertainment go to a movie, a theme park, a national park, a neighborhood park. But don't try to make change at a Disney theme park some kind of moralistic drama.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo And it is sad, with that statement Manfried, to know you used to be a part of the business. The nobility of the Disney experience is what made us fans. If they said they were ripping half a land out and were putting in something new with attention to detail, no toons and limited use of screen technology or interactivity, I would be jumping up and down with anticipation. In fact if RRSRR was not toon based, I would be jumping up and down too.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I have no issue with material change, I have an issue that the vision has changed.
Originally Posted By Manfried dave, the vision never changed, but the fact that it is and was a business has never changed either. What has changed are the people designing things. Frankly, some of them do not understand making good rides on a budget. You can say "Walt never cared about the budget" and that would be wrong. He did. But he also would make sure it was a good ride. And then he also knew his designers would not foolishly spend money on things no one ever sees. Sadly, many of the Imagineers don't get this aspect. I say bring in some designers from the movie business who know how to pull off great looks without the great expense. That would bring some magic back.
Originally Posted By Moondoggie The post Walt/pre Eisner was the worst time in the park? Haunted Mansion. Pirates of the Caribbean. Major development in Tomorrowland at the end of the '60s that people still refer to as cutting edge. A plethora of new attractions through the 70s. An updated Fantasyland in the early '80s. There were actually a lot of great things going on in the park at that time that were both thematic and very Disney. I won't get much into the film or corporate aspect since that wasn't the focus of my posting, though I will say that personally I was okay with their films in the '70s. Unfortunately, innocence and simplicity were not what people were looking for as much during that time period though. Still it was nice to see Disney sticking by their non-"rated R" standards. During my time at DL, I met a lot of CMs who were very happy during the 70s and would disagree with you. Walt may have no longer been with us, but things were still happening in the park that were quality, and many who I knew reminisced about the years that Walt still walked through the park. His spirit was definitely still there, and those who worked with him when he was still alive had so many special stories to tell. Then came the corporate situation of the '80s. After that a number of those veteran park CMs who had become very comfortable with their roles as Disney CMs decided to leave within a couple of years. Something that wasn't happening in the previous decade. In fact, when I hired in in '83 it was actually still tough to get a job there because turnover wasn't real high. People had been there for years and liked working there. As for the movement that took place after '84, I understood. The feeling was just different from what it had been before.
