Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>But there are many that would consider that cruel and unusual punishment and immoral, so they'd be just as against something like that as you are against the death penalty.<< That's true. They would ask how anyone can find redemption locked away, they'd sue on behalf of families wanting to visit the prisoner, etc. It's unworkable. What I think you are suggesting cmpaley is a sort of "lock 'em up and throw away the key" approach that is simply never going to fly. I believe that there ARE things people can do in this life that are so horrendous that we as a society have the right to remove them from this world. Some may see that as "playing God." I see it as protecting society from a cancer. It shouldn't be done friviously or without the proper legal safeguards to prevent mistakenly executing a truly innocent person, but 26 years after the crime has been committed is way, way too long.
Originally Posted By cstephens RoadTrip wrote: > The difference is that since only God gives life, only God should take it away. But we do make exceptions for killing. Not all killing is punishable. Killing in self-defense is not prosecuted. So if a person is put in the position of "kill or be killed", are you saying they should just let themselves be killed rather than taking the life of the other? Police offices and the like unfortunately need to kill sometimes to save other lives. Should they abstain from killing anyone because they don't have that right, or given the choice, do they end up killing someone in order to protect someone else? And looking at this from a slightly different standpoint, could it not be argued that God is using the state as an instrument to carry out His will? That because there were enough people to approve the death penalty, it was because God spoke through them to have enough people to approve the measure? I realize it's a bit of a stretch, but it's something I've considered. God doesn't always accomplish things directly. He oftentimes accomplishes things through individuals. It reminds me of the story or parable, don't know where it came from, of a man stranded on a rooftop in a flood. He believed with all his heart that God would save him. Someone came along in a canoe and offered him a ride. He said no, that God would save him. Someone came in a bigger boat and offered him a ride. He said no, that God would save him. As the waters continued to rise, almost drowning him, a helicopter came and offered him a ride. He said no, that God would save him. Eventually, the man drowned. He then saw God, and he said, "God, why did you let me drown?" And God said, "I sent a canoe, a boat and a helicopter to save you. What more did you want?" /cs
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>>>But there are many that would consider that cruel and unusual punishment and immoral, so they'd be just as against something like that as you are against the death penalty.<< That's true. They would ask how anyone can find redemption locked away, they'd sue on behalf of families wanting to visit the prisoner, etc. It's unworkable. What I think you are suggesting cmpaley is a sort of "lock 'em up and throw away the key" approach that is simply never going to fly.<< Actually, no. They would be allowed limited visits with family members. Spiritual directors (i.e., priests, ministers, etc.) would be able to visit regularly and as requested. The idea is to separate the dangerous criminal from society as best as humanly possible. The thing is, many people don't want these people to find redemption. They'd just as soon kill them and speed them on their way to eternal hell without a change to repent and do penance. Just listen to the language used by the more rabid death penalty supporters. They talk about animals and scum and the like...all the while claiming to be God-loving Christian folk.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer >>And looking at this from a slightly different standpoint, could it not be argued that God is using the state as an instrument to carry out His will? That because there were enough people to approve the death penalty, it was because God spoke through them to have enough people to approve the measure? I realize it's a bit of a stretch, but it's something I've considered. God doesn't always accomplish things directly. He oftentimes accomplishes things through individuals.<< Or someone or something else is working through them. If God wanted these people dead, they'd be dead. He wouldn't have to appeal to people's fears and anger in making the decision to institutionalize the killing of other people. If these people were being executed out of love, then I'd say it is the hand of God. But they are being executed out of vengeance, fear and loathing. That's someone else's hand at work.
Originally Posted By cstephens cmpaley wrote: > They would be allowed limited visits with family members. Spiritual directors (i.e., priests, ministers, etc.) would be able to visit regularly and as requested. That's still not going to solve the problem. Family members could be involved in the same crimes they were. Nowadays, it's not that hard to proclaim yourself as a spiritual director, and if that were the only way for people to visit other than family, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot more of them popped up out of nowhere. But you're saying that if such measures were taken, and it could still be proven that they were involved in perpetrating or directing crimes, then it would be ok for the state to put them to death? /cs
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>If these people were being executed out of love, then I'd say it is the hand of God. But they are being executed out of vengeance, fear and loathing. That's someone else's hand at work.<< I can just see the right-wingers' faces all twisting in rage: How...DAAAAARE you! LOL!
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan But the reality is that some ARE animals and scum. They just are. Maybe I have too high of an opinion of myself or am fooling myself, but I think I am better than someone who murders people for kicks or profit. I think there are certain things people do that make the "less", if that makes sense. They debase themselves and the world around them by their activities. It is an insult to people who live their lives helping or at least not harming others to see a viscious murderer as their equal. Hopefully, people in prison who aren't there for murder find their self worth and come out ready to be a positive influence on the world. I think we should provide all we can to make that happen, to save those people (and society) from people trapped in a cycle of crime and prison. But for more vicious crimes, the death penalty is appropriate. (IMHO of course.)
Originally Posted By cstephens TomSawyer wrote: > Or someone or something else is working through them. Yes, that's true, but I guess you won't even consider the point I was trying to make as a possibility. > If God wanted these people dead, they'd be dead. He wouldn't have to appeal to people's fears and anger in making the decision to institutionalize the killing of other people. I can't remember the last time I heard that God had personally struck someone down. Making the decisions on His own also seems a bit heavy-handed. We have choices. Maybe He allows us to have the choice to carry out His will through the state. Again, I'm open to that also being directed by the Devil, but I'm not convinced of that. God is loving, be he is also just. /cs
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>If these people were being executed out of love, then I'd say it is the hand of God. But they are being executed out of vengeance, fear and loathing. That's someone else's hand at work.<< I am in favor of executing them because I fear for innocents in our society and love peaceful communities. I don't claim that God is informing my decision, but I truly doubt Satan is making me speak either.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I can't remember the last time I heard that God had personally struck someone down.<< Exactly. You could just as easily say "If God wanted them in jail, He'd build prisons." It's too easy of an answer to very difficult questions, and has been the go-to answer since "If man were meant to fly, God would have given them wings." C'mon.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Actually, no. They would be allowed limited visits with family members.<< Except for Manson Family members, I presume. And what if Joe the Killer's brother is carrying out hits based on info he gets from these visits?
Originally Posted By TomSawyer >>I can't remember the last time I heard that God had personally struck someone down.<< Frankly, what happens down here is small potatoes in the long run. When people die probably doesn't matter to him nearly as much as the kind of life they are living. He'll deal with them all eventually. >>Making the decisions on His own also seems a bit heavy-handed.<< Well, He is God, after all. You know, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. That gives Him a lot of leeway in decision making, imho. >>Maybe He allows us to have the choice to carry out His will through the state.<< I agree, and that's why we have government programs to feed to poor, house the homeless, take care of the sick, and to treat prisoners with respect. Just as Christ commanded us. >God is loving, be he is also just.< That's why I don't think His hand is involved in capital punishment laws. He knows we are faulty, and He knows that innocent people will be put to death when capital punishment is practiced. Why would He risk tainting our souls with innocent blood, when He knows that we're all going to die someday anyway. He'll hand down His justice then. In the meantime, we can keep ourselves safe by keeping the condemned away from future victims.
Originally Posted By cstephens TomSawyer wrote: > Frankly, what happens down here is small potatoes in the long run. When people die probably doesn't matter to him nearly as much as the kind of life they are living. He'll deal with them all eventually. So He doesn't really care about what happens down here because we don't really matter anyway, and when He has a spare minute, He'll get around to figuring out what to do with us? Wow, I've never heard it expressed that way before. > Well, He is God, after all. You know, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. That gives Him a lot of leeway in decision making, imho. I'll admit that it's been a long time since I've read the Bible, but I don't recall God being quite that heavy-handed, at least in the New Testament. If He wanted us all to be good, He would definitely be able to make that happen. But as I recall, He wanted to give us choice. We can listen to Him, or we can choose not to. I'm just not so sure that choosing to support the death penalty is definitely taking direction from the Devil as you would claim. /cs
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>But you're saying that if such measures were taken, and it could still be proven that they were involved in perpetrating or directing crimes, then it would be ok for the state to put them to death?<< Here's what I've said. Put two and two together: 1. if the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined 2. if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor. Those are the conditions.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>I'll admit that it's been a long time since I've read the Bible, but I don't recall God being quite that heavy-handed, at least in the New Testament.<< Actually, there is an interesting case where God directly intervenes and kills a husband and wife because they lied: Acts 5:1-11 "But a man named Ananias with his wife Sapphi'ra sold a piece of property, and with his wife's knowledge he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear came upon all who heard of it. The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him. After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. And Peter said to her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for so much." And she said, "Yes, for so much." But Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? Hark, the feet of those that have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." Immediately she fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. And great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all who heard of these things. Seems that God DOES intervene to put people to death where He determines it is necessary.
Originally Posted By cstephens OK, maybe it's just me, but I don't read the part where it says God struck either of them down dead. When confronted with their lies, they each died. I take that to mean that they were so ashamed of themselves that it induced their dying - it was brought on by themselves. God wasn't even talking to them - Peter was. /cs
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Hmmmm... God kills two people for some relatively minor fraud while letting mass murderers go free? That's why I think the Bible should NEVER be taken literally.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer >>So He doesn't really care about what happens down here because we don't really matter anyway, and when He has a spare minute, He'll get around to figuring out what to do with us? Wow, I've never heard it expressed that way before.<< I never have either until you misinterpreted what I wrote. >>I'm just not so sure that choosing to support the death penalty is definitely taking direction from the Devil as you would claim.<< Who said definitely?
