Originally Posted By woody I wonder why religion should be the reason for clemency. If religion was used by the Christian Right for political decisions unpopular to Democrats or Liberals, they will cry foul. Separation of Church and State? I guess not. On a side note, Schwarzenegger never campaigned as a devote Christian or Catholic. It would be presumptous and hypocritical for Schwarzenegger to start now... that is find religion when its convenient. cmpaley: You have amazing consistency on the mixing of state and religion.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Philosophically, the function of the State is to promote the common good. It does not serve the common good to execute someone in today's society where a criminal can be effectively removed from society.<< The function of the State is to uphold the law. Like it or not, disagree or not, the law at this time allows capital punishment. As I have said before, it is an open question as to whether Tookie Wiliams has truly reformed, and how much influence and control he has over the Crips from prison. Also, if Tookie is truly such a wonderful influence to be admired, I would suggest that the folks thinking about rioting or other acts of violence could better make their case that Tookie somehow turned them down a better path by not living down to people's expectations and rioting tonight. That would make people thing a heck of a lot more than trashing public and private property.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>cmpaley: You have amazing consistency on the mixing of state and religion.<< Did you actually read what I wrote? I believe one's religious beliefs should INFORM (not necessarily dicatate) their political beliefs. A whole religion will have more than just the overtly religious elements. It will also include a philosophical way of thinking that leads one to determine what the the *PURPOSE* of things like the State are. What I've come to think is that the purpose of the state is to promote the common good. That includes having a system of laws that will work toward that end. Not all laws are right because they don't promote the common good. Now, this is where a the question about the death penalty comes in: How do laws permitting the death penalty serve to promote the common good when a convicted murderer can be kept out of society so they can't do any further harm for the rest of their lives? Also, do laws permitting the death penalty serve the common good when the execution of that law could result in a greater evil?
Originally Posted By woody "Did you actually read what I wrote? I believe one's religious beliefs should INFORM (not necessarily dicatate) their political beliefs." I read it so I wonder why you singled out Schwarzenegger's religion especially since he didn't campaign on his religious beliefs. Many liberals do not think someone's religious beliefs should inform them on abortion. The common good is actually having the babies instead of destroying them especially if your religious beliefs consider the unborn to be human beings. On the common good for convicted murders, I can safely say they are scum and worthy of destruction especially Tookie who never admitted to the crime. Tookie is also a danger in prison. He is up to no good where ever he is. He deserves to be snuffed out. ---------- <a href="http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47647" target="_blank">http://www.wnd.com/news/articl e.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47647</a> While Williams' celebrity cheerleaders have claimed he has been a model prisoner throughout his sentence and have pointed to this as evidence of his rehabilitation, the DA's report contains 11 examples of incidents for which he was disciplined, beginning in 1981 and continuing through 1993. They include: * a violent fight with another inmate June 30, 1981, in which he repeatedly struck the prisoner while kneeling over him; * a refusal to line up for a return to his cell Jan. 26, 1982, in which he threatened a guard; * throwing a chemical substance in the eyes of a guard Jan. 28, 1982, in an attack that resulted in chemical burns and emergency treatment; * a second attack on a guard with a chemical substance Jan. 29, 1982; * an attack on another inmate Feb. 16, 1984, in which Williams only stopped beating the prisoner when a warning shot was fired; * a threat to kill a guard June 8, 1984; * the beating of another inmate July 4, 1986 that only ceased when armed officers arrived on the scene; * another fight with an inmate that led to his own stabbing, reportedly retaliation for his ordering another inmate to be stabbed; * his continued association with the Crips street gang led to administrative segregation Oct. 19, 1988; * the beating of another inmate Dec. 24, 1991, that only stopped after a warning shot was fired; * another fight with other inmates July 6, 1993, in which a stabbing instrument (shank) was recovered. The DA's report also says Williams threatened all of the jurors after they found him guilty.
Originally Posted By Darkbeer <a href="http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/12/D8EF2B185.html" target="_blank">http://www.breitbart.com/news/ 2005/12/12/D8EF2B185.html</a> >>But Schwarzenegger suggested Monday that Williams' supposed change of heart was not genuine, noting that the inmate had not owned up to his crimes or shown any real remorse for the countless killings committed by the Crips. "Is Williams' redemption complete and sincere, or is it just a hollow promise?" Schwarzenegger wrote less than 12 hours before the execution. "Without an apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings, there can be no redemption." << >>In denying clemency to Williams, Schwarzenegger said that the evidence of his guilt was "strong and compelling," and he dismissed suggestions that the trial was unfair. Schwarzenegger also pointed out the brutality of the crimes, noting that Williams allegedly said about one of the killings, "You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him." According to the governor's account, Williams then made a growling noise and laughed for five to six minutes. In addition, the governor noted that Williams dedicated his 1998 book "Life in Prison" to a list of figures that included the black militant George Jackson _ "a significant indicator that Williams is not reformed and that he still sees violence and lawlessness as a legitimate means to address societal problems." Schwarzenegger also noted that there is "little mention or atonement in his writings and his plea for clemency of the countless murders committed by the Crips following the lifestyle Williams once espoused. The senseless killing that has ruined many families, particularly in African-American communities, in the name of the Crips and gang warfare is a tragedy of our modern culture." Williams and a friend founded the Crips in Los Angeles in 1971. Authorities say it is responsible for hundreds of deaths, many of them in battles with the rival Bloods for turf and control of the drug trade. <<
Originally Posted By woody Don't forget Tookie's jail break plot (see the link in my previous post). ----- The DA report also contains revelations about a plot by Williams to escape from the Los Angeles County Jail, killing two deputies in the process and then murdering Coward (Tookie's witness and accomplice to the crime). That plan was disclosed by fellow inmate George Oglesby, who provided handwritten notes and detailed maps. Two armed people on the outside were to aid the plan, which involved blowing up a prisoner transport bus with dynamite to delay identification of who escaped. In one of those notes, Williams wrote that Coward was a "heartbeat away from death." Oglesby said Williams planned to kill Coward because he was a witness against him.
Originally Posted By gadzuux So arnold schwarzenegger, hollywood megastar, tics off a list of reasons why so-n-so deserves to die. Tonight. Perhaps if tookie had taken a slightly different path in prison, he might have been able to pass muster with the action-movie hero's list of necessary hurdles so as to not be killed in front of an audience of onlookers. Tonight. Funny world. I just heard reports that jesse jackson got into some scuffle outside san quentin, and his bodyguards snapped a microphone in two after a reporter asked an impertinent question. Settle in with some popcorn.
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder "Honestly, I don't believe that Schwarzenegger is capable of comprehending even the most basic and simplistic of philosophies." Yes, we know. Enough already.
Originally Posted By cstephens gadzuux wrote: > So arnold schwarzenegger, hollywood megastar, tics off a list of reasons why so-n-so deserves to die. Tonight. He didn't pick tonight. The date was picked a long time ago. > Perhaps if tookie had taken a slightly different path in prison, he might have been able to pass muster with the action-movie hero's list of necessary hurdles so as to not be killed in front of an audience of onlookers. Perhaps if tookie had taken a slightly different path in life, he might not be in the position to be sentenced to death. > I just heard reports that jesse jackson got into some scuffle outside san quentin, and his bodyguards snapped a microphone in two after a reporter asked an impertinent question. The "reporter" in question was actually talk show host John Ziegler of KFI. /cs
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>"Did you actually read what I wrote? I believe one's religious beliefs should INFORM (not necessarily dicatate) their political beliefs." I read it so I wonder why you singled out Schwarzenegger's religion especially since he didn't campaign on his religious beliefs.<< Because when he goes to Mass at St. Monica's in Santa Monica, the press is there. Why would that be unless he wants them there? And why else would he want them there unless he wanted it known that he goes to church...a Catholic Church. >>Many liberals do not think someone's religious beliefs should inform them on abortion.<< And many do. What of it? I don't consider myself a liberal (the totality of my political beliefs would actually make me a moderate as I am a conservative on moral issues and a "liberal" on social justice issues and a moderate on economic issues)...all that because I listen to what the Church has to say. >>The common good is actually having the babies instead of destroying them especially if your religious beliefs consider the unborn to be human beings.<< Absolutely, the unborn are human beings and that makes abortion murder. >>On the common good for convicted murders, I can safely say they are scum and worthy of destruction especially Tookie who never admitted to the crime.<< No, this is where you fall completely off the wagon of consistent logic. EVERY human person is born with the inherent right to live. Even going back to the Old Testament times, if you honestly look at the big picture in the Bible, you'll see that the singular underlying reason for the death penalty is to protect the nation as a whole. Stanley Williams isn't scum, he is a human person who is convicted of committing horrific crimes. Again, the question is, what common good would be promoted by killing him? That he dies? That he's punished? Okay, and how is the common good served by that? That he can't commit any further crimes? The alternative of life in solitary confinement would meet that requirement. So, the burden is on you, not me, to prove that state sponsored killing, which belies your alleged pro-life credentials, is beneficial.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>> I just heard reports that jesse jackson got into some scuffle outside san quentin, and his bodyguards snapped a microphone in two after a reporter asked an impertinent question. The "reporter" in question was actually talk show host John Ziegler of KFI.<< No one on KFI has any credibility whatsoever.
Originally Posted By cstephens cmpaley wrote: > No one on KFI has any credibility whatsoever. How about when the scuffle is caught on tape? Think they made that up? /cs
Originally Posted By cmpaley On KFI? Unless it's on VIDEO from more than one source that is NOT FOXNews, I wouldn't trust it.
Originally Posted By peeaanuut Police scanner activity for Long Beach is very high right now. They are operating on more channels that usual. Lakewood station is on High Tactical alert, the Long Beach Swat headquarters by the Airport is fully up and running as a command station. 2 full swat teams are ready and waiting. Should be a fun night. Ill have the scanner on all night to see what kind of stuff is going on. Also the Hater street gang seemed to be out in force today (they wear red and are supposedly "anti-crip") Police seem to be out in force already as I saw about 10 different teamed units while going to the grocery store. I think they are ready.
Originally Posted By JohnS1 All the philosophical and religious arguments aside, something that nobody has mentioned here is that Tookie has steadfastly insisted he is innocent. I haven't followed his case but heard this stated several times on TV tonight. Does that mean that there is no visual or other hard evidece of his having committed the crime? I bring this up chiefly because if the governator is basing his denial of clemency on the fact that Tookie shows no remorse and has not apologized, how does that square with the convicted's claim that he didn't commit the crime? In other words - if he says he didn't do it, of course he wouldn't show remorse or apologize, right?
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> Perhaps if tookie had taken a slightly different path in life, he might not be in the position to be sentenced to death. << Just who is it that's in a position to decide who deserves life and who deserves death? You? Arnold? Certainly not me. I do not assume the privilege of deciding the time, date, and method of somebody else's fate. TV has helped to turn it into this circus. In the frequent news teasers for the 11pm shows, they solumnly intone "two hours before tookie is put to death - tune in at 11." "Just over ninety minutes now - tune in at 11". Any resulting civil disturbance will just round out the savage nature of the whole sordid spectacle. Next execution is scheduled for january 17th.
Originally Posted By Darkbeer JohnS1, read the Statement of Decision... <a href="http://www.governor.ca.gov/govsite/pdf/press_release_2005/Williams_Clemency_Decision.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.governor.ca.gov/gov site/pdf/press_release_2005/Williams_Clemency_Decision.pdf</a> It talks about the actual crimes, the statements Tookie Williams told others about his crimes, and all the different court hearings... It is a very well written statement.
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Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<Just who is it that's in a position to decide who deserves life and who deserves death? You? Arnold?>> I think that question is immaterial. I know that if I kill someone and I am caught, I could be sentenced to death. So I don't go around killing people. I am sure Mr. Williams knew that as well, but chose to ignore it.
