Originally Posted By cstephens JohnS1 wrote: > something that nobody has mentioned here is that Tookie has steadfastly insisted he is innocent. Don't many people in prison claim to be innocent? > Does that mean that there is no visual or other hard evidece of his having committed the crime? There's enough evidence that he was convicted by a jury and that no court has seen fit to overturn the verdict and sentence. gadzuux wrote: > Just who is it that's in a position to decide who deserves life and who deserves death? You? Arnold? Legally? This state. This state has decided that it approved the death penalty. If you're against the death penalty, then I can understand your position. However, I don't hold the same position. /cs
Originally Posted By gadzuux So then you've answered the question - you (as well as the state) have decided that you hold the power of life and death in your hands. Killing people is easy - try saving them, see how that works out. I hope your god is more merciful in judging you than you are in judging others.
Originally Posted By cmpaley To all the pro-death penalty people (I assume my post was admined because it was addressed to one person): Got the champagne ready? Are you ready to celebrate the death of another human being?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan No. I'm reflecting on what a tragic legacy Tookie Williams created, and all the young lives lost in gangwarfare over the years, not to mention countless innocent bystanders, and the havoc that will be with us in the future thanks to the Crips and other violent gangs. He is largely responsible for a holocaust on African Americans and other minorities over the past 30 years that continues to this day and will in teh future.
Originally Posted By cmpaley 2oony, I've met you and know you're not ghoulish like that. But there are people who do revel is human death, especially if it's a person they've decided is less than human.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan The whole thing saddens me, and no, I don't revel in this at all. But I keep looking at how he misled so very many young lives, created an infrastructure for chaos and death, and that's the enormous tragedy here that is overshadowed by the execution. All we hear about are childrens books and Nobel Prize nominations, when it would be valuable, I think, to remember what this guy left us.
Originally Posted By tiggertoo <<There's enough evidence that he was convicted by a jury and that no court has seen fit to overturn the verdict and sentence.>> Court, juries, lawyers have made mistakes in the past—not to say Williams wasn't guilty. There are a number of cases where 30 or so years after the juries and courts convicted someone, evidence is uncovered which proves them innocent and prior convictions overturned. At least in a life conviction, there is a chance to free the individual. For those executed, guilt is irrelevant once the ultimate sentence is carried out. Justice has failed. Besides, executions are a waste of time. I would rather be executed that locked in a cell for 20, 30, 50 years. Where is the penance in a corpse? And for the record, I am for limiting prison amenities. It’s prison, not the Holiday Inn. Anyhow, back to my masters thesis. This thing is taking forever.
Originally Posted By Dave >>>This thing is taking forever.<<< My bet is he is toast by now. Word just hasn't came down yet
Originally Posted By cstephens gadzuux wrote: > Killing people is easy - try saving them, see how that works out. I wish Tookie Williams and others like him had taken your words to heart. > I hope your god is more merciful in judging you than you are in judging others. If I'm ever in the position of having brutally murdered 4 people, then I'd deserve to forfeit my life as well. cmpaley wrote: > To all the pro-death penalty people: > Got the champagne ready? Are you ready to celebrate the death of another human being? Because you assume that if we believe in the death penalty, we must be celebrating? Nice of you to make that assumption, twice, I think, when no one has expressed that sort of sentiment here. I know some people might be "celebrating" this death, but I doubt anyone here is. But it's insulting of you to say that here, and if insults are all you have, then it would seem you don't have much of a position. /cs
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>cmpaley wrote: > To all the pro-death penalty people: > Got the champagne ready? Are you ready to celebrate the death of another human being? Because you assume that if we believe in the death penalty, we must be celebrating? Nice of you to make that assumption, twice, I think, when no one has expressed that sort of sentiment here. I know some people might be "celebrating" this death, but I doubt anyone here is. But it's insulting of you to say that here, and if insults are all you have, then it would seem you don't have much of a position.<< They're legitimate questions. If you're aware of what some people on the radio have been about lately, then you'll understand where the question comes from. As to my position, I have already expounded on my position of opposition to the death sentence and the philosophical and moral reasons why I hold it.
Originally Posted By cmpaley Word is that Williams has died. May God have mercy on his soul and may the Lord Jesus have mercy on us all.
Originally Posted By cstephens cmpaley wrote: > They're legitimate questions. No, they're not. They're insulting. > If you're aware of what some people on the radio have been about lately, then you'll understand where the question comes from. Then direct the question to the people on the radio, not to people here who have expressed no sentiments even close to that. /cs
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 <<No. I'm reflecting on what a tragic legacy Tookie Williams created, and all the young lives lost in gangwarfare over the years, not to mention countless innocent bystanders, and the havoc that will be with us in the future thanks to the Crips and other violent gangs. He is largely responsible for a holocaust on African Americans and other minorities over the past 30 years that continues to this day and will in teh future.>> Thank you, that is something that has been overlooked a lot in this whole ordeal. It is sad to think of the legacy he created affected so many people in a negative way. His gang activity even affected my family in an indirect way. I currently have a family member who went to prison for gang related activity. And my family is a white middle to upper middle class, but this kid got in with a bad crowd. Now I'm not saying Tookie Williams was responsible for that, my family member made his own choices and had an absentee father.
Originally Posted By tiggertoo But his execution won't change gangland one iota. So what are we really accomplishing by putting him to death? Satisfying the gruesome realities of justice? Adding bloodlust to our penal code is our choice; justice is not some disembodied entity. It is our sense of revenge which causes this. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for justice, but essentially we resort to Hammurabi’s code by taking a “life for a life.â€
Originally Posted By wahooskipper The cruel and unusual punishment in all of this is that he...and the victims families...had to wait this long for the finality of it all.
Originally Posted By FaMulan May God have mercy on his soul and may the Lord Jesus have mercy on us all.<< May the families of his many victims (I believe he may have been responsible for more than the four murders he was executed for) have the closure and healing they need to continue with their lives.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer How do we prevent the next Tookie Williams from following the path that he did? Do we just keep imprisoning and executing those who have fallen, or do we figure out why so many of our young people are so willing to risk their future by choosing to run with street gangs? Williams would have just been another thug if not for the abject poverty and powerlessness that was pandemic in his community. Gangs don't take root in places where kids feel like they have other options. We keep seeing that happen over and over, but all we seem to think about is how to punish the criminals instead of trying to figure out how to prevent them from committing the crimes in the first place.
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder "Word is that Williams has died. May God have mercy on his soul and may the Lord Jesus have mercy on us all." Frankly, while I'm against the death penalty, as long as he's dead, the guy can go to hell. The gang mentality he helped to foment has been responsible for thousands of deaths and will be for as far into the future as we can see. He indeed was worthless scum, contributing nothing of posiitve value to this world during his time here. Here's hoping he endures an eternity of vicious pain. That said, using people like him as a lightning rod to do away with the death penalty gets us nowhere. As long as we're so ballot initiative happy in this state, maybe it's time to revist the issue once again.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy What is not right is that this anilmal was allowed to live for TWENTY FIVE years after he was convicted and sentenced to die. I can understand an appeal and maybe a year or two delay. But 25 years?? This needs to be changed. How much was spent keeping him alive for all those years?
