Originally Posted By patrickegan “Schwarzenegger, once again, demonstrates that his Catholicism is mere show.†Yep probably some advise his uncle Teddy gave him. “You take that Tookie for a ride my boy and hope he can’t swim!â€
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>How do we prevent the next Tookie Williams from following the path that he did?<< We can start by not glorifying gang life, nor thugs like Tookie Williams. We can focus on TRUE leaders like Martin Luther King, Jr., who didn't have to have a prison conversion to non-violence, but rather lived it his entire life. Economic opportunity can't get a foothold in areas run by gangs, which is of course what gang leaders count on. We need a new war on poverty in this country that encourages more businesses to take some risk and give the good people in these areas a chance for something better. We have to address the way public schools are funded currently, where schools in more affluent areas get more money per child than do teachers in more at risk areas. The perception is that every school get the same number of dollars per year per student, that's it's all a flat amount. This isn't the case at all, which of course keeps needy kids in a constant state of educational scarcity, which of course feeds right into the hands of the gang recruiters.
Originally Posted By tiggertoo <<We can start by not glorifying gang life,...>> That is EXACTLY it. The “gangsta†lifestyle has little to do with poverty anymore. You see the same mentality in middle class neighborhoods and high schools. It is glorified by people who make five or six times you or I make. It’s a culture of deemed “cool†and, I’m sorry, I don’t think solving poverty will have all that much effect. What needs to happen is we need to end this “empower the youth†mantra. They aren’t ready for power.
Originally Posted By cstephens TomSawyer wrote: > How do we prevent the next Tookie Williams from following the path that he did? If he was truly repentant, he could have done a lot to try to quell the gangs and violence. He said that he had changed. But yet, he refused to help the police by telling them anything about the gangs that would have helped them deal with the gangs. He could have used his death sentence to send the message that he was doing everything he could to atone for his crimes, but there are some things from which there is no coming back, and don't follow him down the same path by committing the same crimes he did. Anyone remember "Scared Straight"? I know it didn't work on all the kids who went through that, but it worked on some of them. To hold Tookie Williams up as a hero is an insult to true heroes. To say that he's a role model? Because there are no true heroes in the black community? How insulting. /cs
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>The “gangsta†lifestyle has little to do with poverty anymore. You see the same mentality in middle class neighborhoods and high schools.<< That's true. And what about a little corporate responsibility here? How many companies use that gangsta image to move merchandise and feed into the whole thing? Anyone remember the Apprentice episode where they had to create some graffitti art in a black neighborhood to sell a video game? The one with the most stereotypes won the challenge, of course.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<Anyone remember the Apprentice episode where they had to create some graffitti art in a black neighborhood to sell a video game? The one with the most stereotypes won the challenge, of course>> Just to pick a nit, that isn't true. The losing team was led by a black woman who claimed to know Harlem; that it was her territory. But she was more intent on coming up with a "hip" slogan, and producing an art piece that would somehow uplift the neighborhood. The winning team stayed true to the task of producing a grafitti ad that focused on promoting the video game.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>"Word is that Williams has died. May God have mercy on his soul and may the Lord Jesus have mercy on us all." Frankly, while I'm against the death penalty, as long as he's dead, the guy can go to hell. The gang mentality he helped to foment has been responsible for thousands of deaths and will be for as far into the future as we can see. He indeed was worthless scum, contributing nothing of posiitve value to this world during his time here. Here's hoping he endures an eternity of vicious pain.<< Wishing for anyone to suffer eternal hell is monstrous in itself. God, Who is the only Just Judge, doesn't want anyone to go to hell, so who are YOU to want such a thing? >>That said, using people like him as a lightning rod to do away with the death penalty gets us nowhere. As long as we're so ballot initiative happy in this state, maybe it's time to revist the issue once again.<< I'm against the death penalty in ALL cases in our modern world. It doesn't matter who they are or what they did. If the common good is promoted by removing a heinous criminal from society forever by incarceration, then so be it. Killing him, or any criminal, serves NOTHING whatsoever.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>What is not right is that this anilmal was allowed to live for TWENTY FIVE years after he was convicted and sentenced to die.<< This is so indicative of the mentality of the rabid-right. Dehumanize a person so it's easier to destroy them. Yes, he committed heinous acts, but that doesn't take away from his humanity. >>I can understand an appeal and maybe a year or two delay. But 25 years?? This needs to be changed. How much was spent keeping him alive for all those years?<< A lot less than the cost of the whole death penalty process did. About $35,000 a year is spent on an incarcerated inmate. Several million dollars are spent on the death penalty process.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan You're right. But not to get way off track, but... <a href="http://apprentice.tv.yahoo.com/03/theshow/recap/episode6_4.html" target="_blank">http://apprentice.tv.yahoo.com /03/theshow/recap/episode6_4.html</a> Both concepts were loaded with stereotypes. Read the show synopsis and quotes from the people involved and view the slideshow. Just the whole concept of Sony selling a video game with graffitti in harlem is a stereotype in and of itself.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>“Schwarzenegger, once again, demonstrates that his Catholicism is mere show.†Yep probably some advise his uncle Teddy gave him. “You take that Tookie for a ride my boy and hope he can’t swim!†<< And this nonsequitir applies to anything...how?
Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<Frankly, while I'm against the death penalty, as long as he's dead, the guy can go to hell.>> This is actually very well said. <<This is so indicative of the mentality of the rabid-right. Dehumanize a person so it's easier to destroy them. Yes, he committed heinous acts, but that doesn't take away from his humanity.>> cmpaley, the family members of the people Tookie killed don't seem to get much from you. Guys like Tookie deserve to die for what they did in my opinion. The problem is that it takes to LONG to execute these people once they are found guilty.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss ^^ How's that for going off-topic? <<The “gangsta†lifestyle has little to do with poverty anymore. You see the same mentality in middle class neighborhoods and high schools. It is glorified by people who make five or six times you or I make. It’s a culture of deemed “coolâ€>> I don't know if it's just the entertainment industry picking up on what young people find facsinating, but the whole 'bad-boy' thing has been glorified for many years, even before the gangsta lifestyle. Kids just seem to love rebels, and being a bit rebellious. I guess a lot of it is because kids have yet to develop a sense of self. Being "bad" is a way of communicating, "I am my own person" and joining, or at least embracing gang ideas gives them a sense of community.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >><<Frankly, while I'm against the death penalty, as long as he's dead, the guy can go to hell.>> This is actually very well said.<< So you and STPH are God, now? Jesus, after being severely mistreated, mocked, tortured, and nailed to a cross prayed for His murderers. >><<This is so indicative of the mentality of the rabid-right. Dehumanize a person so it's easier to destroy them. Yes, he committed heinous acts, but that doesn't take away from his humanity.>> cmpaley, the family members of the people Tookie killed don't seem to get much from you.<< And killing Williams did what? They've had to hold onto the pain, the anger, the hate, the rage for all these years...for what? Can they even release it now, even though the purpetrator is dead? >>Guys like Tookie deserve to die for what they did in my opinion. The problem is that it takes to LONG to execute these people once they are found guilty.<< So, you're not TRULY pro-life, then. Admit it. Human life isn't important to you unless its not yet born. You're just pro-birth. Here's the difference betwixt thee and me. My belief on this issue is consistent through and through. I am pro-life in ALL circumstances. Does that mean that I believe that Williams should have been set free? God forbid. Does that mean that I believe that any murderer should be set free? God forbid. Once again, my position is line for line exactly the same as the Church's: >>2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor. If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person. Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically non-existent."<< To break that down, it says: The death penalty is acceptable if and only if: 1. the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined AND 2. this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor In the Williams case, condition 2 has NOT been met. There was an alternative means of effectively defending human lives against him...solitary confinement with minimum human contact for the rest of his natural life. See how consistent that is?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor<< Are we sure he wasn't still exerting some control over the Crips from behind prison walls? Opinions vary.
Originally Posted By FaMulan <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10284169/#051212a" target="_blank">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10 284169/#051212a</a> The link is to Tucker Carlson's blog on msnbc. He makes some very salient points about the Williams case and the celebs who didn't want him to pay for his crimes.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<So, you're not TRULY pro-life, then. Admit it. Human life isn't important to you unless its not yet born. You're just pro-birth.>> Humans that murder other humans, who get a trial and are convicted should die in some cases. Same goes for terrorists and Saddam.
