Originally Posted By tiggertoo Manson is another one of these who deserve to be completely isolated from the public. Food, hygiene, and medical care is all they should get. This is not a boys and girls club with all the amenities, it’s prison. No games, no TV. It isn’t as if we need to reform them (at least the lifers).
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Really, I do get what you're saying and what Gadzuux, Tom Sawyer and cmpaley as well. The problem, however, is that there is often some Hollywood halfwit ready to rally 'round these big time murderers, or a wanna-be Geraldo ready to put them on the air. Sitting off in an isolated cell someplace twiddling their thumbs for the rest of their lives? Sure, that's fine. But that's not what really happens.
Originally Posted By gadzuux <a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2005/12/13/state/n072026S90.DTL" target="_blank">http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/ article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2005/12/13/state/n072026S90.DTL</a> Europeans express outrage over Williams execution By VANESSA GERA, Associated Press Writer >> California's execution of Stanley Tookie Williams on Tuesday outraged many in Europe who regard the practice as barbaric, and politicians in Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's native Austria called for his name to be removed from a sports stadium in his hometown. << >> Leaders of Austria's pacifist Green Party went as far as to call for Schwarzenegger to be stripped of his Austrian citizenship — a demand that was quickly rejected by Chancellor Wolfgang Schuessel despite his government's opposition to the death penalty. In Schwarzenegger's hometown of Graz, local Greens said they would file a petition to remove his name from the southern city's sports stadium. A Christian political group went even further, suggesting it be renamed the "Stanley Tookie Williams Stadium." Rome Mayor Walter Veltroni said the city would keep Williams in its memory the next time it celebrates a victory against the death penalty somewhere in the world. Rome's Colosseum, once the arena for deadly gladiator combat and executions, has become a symbol of Italy's anti-death penalty stance. Since 1999, the monument has been bathed in golden light every time a death sentence is commuted somewhere in the world or a country abolishes capital punishment. "I hope there will be such an occasion soon," Veltroni said in a statement. "When it happens, we will do it with a special thought for Tookie." <<
Originally Posted By planodisney if you think libs are angry over her, look at the nutjobs in Europe. Heck, they are wanting to re-name buildings for Tookie. they want to celebrate the guy, but never a word about what he did, who he killed or any feelings for the victims families. you see, liberals believe that everybody is basically good, save republicans, and blame society, corporations, conservatives and anyone else they can think of for the acts of scum like this guy. somebody even posted earlier that we need to blame society for lifting the spirits in some way, of people who have no hope in the inner city. PLEASE!!! How about liberals, and leaders of these minority groups, preaching responsibility and education in these locations instead of pandering for their votes while keeping them in the slums. I wish nobody had to be given the death penalty, but i also wish that we didnt live in a society filled with murderers with no souls. forget all of the talk about the death penalty being against God. that is BOLOGNA plain and simple. I dont care what the Pope says, he has no more of a diolect with God than I do. He also says that homosexuality is a sin, so i guess some of you pick and choose what to follow. The death penalty is a just sentence for a crime like this.
Originally Posted By patrickegan How can you support a party whose position is diametrically opposed to the teachings of the church? By that I mean killing of innocent children? I’m waiting for you to post what the Vatican or the Pope has to say about abortion.
Originally Posted By planodisney I love that last quote in gadzuux's post. Yes, lets do it ALL for Tookie. I think they are going to be giving out Tookie dolls for christmas over there. Dont you guys honestly see how insane the rest of the world is becomming. We shouldnt be pointing to what these nutjobs believe as a source from which to gain insight, but as a reminder of what we dont want to be like. When will these countries get over the past attrocoties commited over there and be able to condemn people who need to be condemned. The constantly need victims to fight for over there to make themselves feel better about their pasts, but the problem is, that most of the time, their choice of victims to defend are the ones they should be condemning. Hammas, we just dont understand their point of view. Terrorists, the same thing. Tookie, well, we just wont speak about those who have died at his hands and because of him, for nothing but pleasure. Their are some clear thinking liberals out there, but thank God for those conservatives who stand up against the left in this nation to keep it from becomming an emotionless, brain dead, brain washed by the socialist controlled media that are many Europeans today.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>I wish nobody had to be given the death penalty, but i also wish that we didnt live in a society filled with murderers with no souls.<< Yeah, sucks even more when they're running the country. >>forget all of the talk about the death penalty being against God. that is BOLOGNA plain and simple.<< Show me in the New Testament, save for Romans 13 (which is a treatise on civil authority), where the death penalty is advocated. >>I dont care what the Pope says, he has no more of a diolect with God than I do.<< This statement demonstrates a complete lack of understanding around the doctrine of the papacy. Nothing says that everything the Pope says is more direct from God than what any other Bishop says. The doctrine of Papal Infallability is a guarantee against error...in other words, the Pope cannot err when speaking "ex cathedra." Once you understand the subtleties of it, the Church's position on the death penalty is consistent with what has always been taught. >>He also says that homosexuality is a sin, so i guess some of you pick and choose what to follow.<< And this obvious attempt at a personal attack is directed at...?
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>How can you support a party whose position is diametrically opposed to the teachings of the church? By that I mean killing of innocent children? I’m waiting for you to post what the Vatican or the Pope has to say about abortion.<< I only oppose the Republican party, that doesn't mean I support the Democrat party. Grow up and get your facts straight.
Originally Posted By cstephens gadzuux wrote: > A Christian political group went even further, suggesting it be renamed the "Stanley Tookie Williams Stadium." I can see being against the death penalty. But to then turn around and "honor" a man who not only killed at least 4 innocent people but has been responsible (directly or indirectly) for countless other lives being ended or ruined? It turns my stomach that Tookie Williams is being heralded as a paragon of virtue. What about the numerous people who grew up in the same environment and were able to do good for society without having to first wreck havoc on their neighbors and community? Why aren't they being celebrated and honored and having stadiums and corn flakes and video games named after them? /cs
Originally Posted By cmpaley I agree that Schwarzenegger's name should be dishonored and defamed and held in contempt, but don't exalt William's name as a form of compensation. Note I don't call either man by their popular monikers.
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder "Note I don't call either man by their popular monikers." Yeah, you're sure showing them. Sheesh...
Originally Posted By cmpaley STPH, what's this bug up your butt about the fact that I don't like Schwarzenegger? Are you a follower of his or something? Beau spends all his time telling us how the "libs" are satan and Bush is god and you don't even give him half the hard time you give me about my utter disdain and loathing for Schwarzenegger (and I can at least explain why I feel that way without resorting to talk radio talking points!).
Originally Posted By patrickegan Nice attempt at a dodge pal where’s the cut and paste from the Vatican on abortion? You’ve got dyed in wool (Scotch) Kennedy/Social Democrat written all over you.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>Nice attempt at a dodge pal where’s the cut and paste from the Vatican on abortion? You’ve got dyed in wool (Scotch) Kennedy/Social Democrat written all over you. << You make the accusation, put up or shut up. My positions are well known around here, so you better back up your accusation or lose credibility.
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Originally Posted By cmpaley Oh, and for your information, we are talking about the death penalty, not abortion. But I will say this: The section in the official Catechism of the Catholic Church (not "the Vatican" as you so ignorantly call it) that contains section (2267) on the death penalty is found in: <a href="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm#2267" target="_blank">http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ p3s2c2a5.htm#2267</a> PART THREE, LIFE IN CHRIST SECTION TWO, THE TEN COMMANDMENTS CHAPTER TWO, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF" ARTICLE 5, THE FIFTH COMMANDMENT 2267 falls under the subheading of "Legitimate defense" Two paragraphs later starts the subheading on abortion which is paragraphs 2270 through 2275. In other words, the Church's teaching about abortion, euthanasia, murder, suicide, and the death penalty and such all fall under the same heading of the fifth commandment. Don't try to trip me on something of such a grave importance to my faith because I know my faith...very, very well.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>In Schwarzenegger's hometown of Graz, local Greens said they would file a petition to remove his name from the southern city's sports stadium. A Christian political group went even further, suggesting it be renamed the "Stanley Tookie Williams Stadium."<< LOL! Boy, The Onion cracks me up.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan What performers would go to a place called Tookie Williams Stadium? The John Wayne Gacy Circus?
Originally Posted By woody Why are you constantly citing the Catholic Church's position on public policy? You're being to make a case where perhaps Catholics are not to be trusted as politicians, judges, and other positions of public policy. You've gone beyond simply INFORMED. You're dictating word by word the Catholic line. There's no attempt at finding common ground between religion, individual interpretation, and U.S. law. Back in Post 124. "The victims and their families? It's a tragedy, but they are no better served by capital punishment than by lifelong incarceration. And those that think they'll gain some eventual satisfaction by the death of the culprit - they lose either way. If they do find solace in the vengance, they are reduced in the process. If they don't, then why do it?" Many advocates of "Tookie Tookie Good Bye" don't even know the victims' names. Rev. Sharton and Jackson both didn't know their names. Sean Hannity asked Rev. Sharpton on "Hannity and Colmes." He didn't know it. KFI's John Ziggler asked Rev. Jackson at San Quentin if he knew the victims' names. He asked him repeatedly without success. There's absolutely no sympathy for the victims and the victims' families. At the end, one victim's family was satified. That is Lora Owens, Albert's stepmother. ---------- My name is Lora Owens. I am the stepmother of Albert Lewis Owens. My husband, Albert's father, has died so I also speak for him since we discussed this letter frequently over the years. I am writing you concerning clemency for Stanley "Tookie" Williams who murdered Albert in 1979 by shooting him twice in the back. Within seconds, though Albert pleaded for his life, Williams chose to become the judge, jury and executioner of Albert, then laughed as he lay dying. In 1981, Williams was tried, convicted and sentenced to death for the murders he committed in cold blood. Now the many, many years of appeals have also been denied and the facts remain steadfast and the verdict remains firm. Now that the appeals have been denied, Williams has decided on a new tactic. A female friend has entered his life who happens to be a journalist who wants to write children's books against gangs. Since the defense of brain damage in his appeals did not gain him anything, Williams decided to become an articulate author denouncing gang activity. He doesn't assist the authorities in stopping gang activity by "debriefing" however, but concentrates on teaching primary school age children the "walk and talk" of gang life. This he claims will deter them from joining a gang. The Nobel Peace Prize nominations, from the first to the last, have been made by activists who see an opportunity to further their personal cause.The first was quoted to have made the nomination to "raise the awareness of the death penalty to a higher degree". Totally nothing to do with Williams and whether he deserved the recognition but for a political agenda. This has been true of each nomination since. They have quoted that it doesn't matter what he has done in the past but what he is doing now. I contend that he is not doing anything now to warrant any type of award and it definitely does matter what he has done in the past. It would matter to anyone whose child is dying in a pool of blood because Williams had the loaded gun and chose to shoot- not in self defense-but shot innocent, unarmed victims simply bcause he could. <a href="http://michellemalkin.com/archives/003984.htm" target="_blank">http://michellemalkin.com/arch ives/003984.htm</a> ------------ I don't think Lora Owens is reduced.
Originally Posted By woody Here's Wayne Owens, the victim's brother. He is against the death penalty to a point. The point was reached with Tookie's shear brutality and non-accountability for his crimes. ----------------- <a href="http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/front/13229280.htm" target="_blank">http://www.kansascity.com/mld/ kansascity/news/front/13229280.htm</a> In the letter, Wayne Owens recounted the last moments in the life of his brother, Albert, and asked the governor to deny Williams’ plea for clemency. Owens had to overcome his distaste for capital punishment to get to that point. “I don’t believe it is a deterrent. Never have,†said Owens, a former stand-up comic and novelist. “I don’t like it, but I also know that this man would be such a strong figure who basically would stand for not taking responsibility. “If there was some way that we could ensure that life without possibility of parole was indeed life without possibility of parole … that would be where all of my energies would be toward.†“There’s been a lot of talk about redemption, but redemption always begins with taking responsibility for what you’ve done and who’ve you’ve harmed,†Owens said. -----------------
