Originally Posted By Mr X ***I'm actually with barboy on this. Our government is living WAY beyond its means and it's ludicrous to think that fixing it won't require some SERIOUS pain. BUT FIRST, restore the 95% tax bracket, drastically cut military spending, drastically cut back on Social Security and Medicare benefits (starting with the financially well-off), and while you're at it, put a few thousand Wall Street banksters in prison where they belong. THEN we'll see if cutting those programs is really necessary. Class warfare? Dang straight. They started it.*** I hardly think that qualifies as "being with barboy on this" (although if he agrees, then sure). Applauding severe cuts to destitute people is beyond reprehensible, UNLESS you first outline what you did above and THEN (assuming things still suck, which they probably wouldn't) go after the weakest and poorest Americans for cutbacks. Too often in todays' society, the wrong things are greeted with thunderous applause.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Endorsing any of the cuts as delineated in post 1 is insanity. If you think some of out streets border on lawlessness, anarchy and poverty now, you haven't seen anything yet. While we do need to reduce spending, starting in those places is not the answer. I see borderline people every day in my job. There's not much holding many of them back any more from simply grabbing from your hand something they want. Many of them were thrust into their situations through no fault of their own, and presently, the mantra of lifting one's self up from the bootstrap and doing it alone is a joke. Get the hell out of Afghanistan and Iran. Cut defense spending deeply. That's a start. Similarly, here in California, if Brown doesn't get his tax extensions, ALL Californians will feel the pain, not just the hit, but the pain.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Endorsing any of the cuts as delineated in post 1 is insanity. If you think some of out streets border on lawlessness, anarchy and poverty now, you haven't seen anything yet.<< If we are headed for a total economic meltdown, then you're going to have every bit of that lawlessness, anarchy and poverty anyway. Only WORSE. That list shows misguided priorities, but it's not insanity. For instance, you seem upset about #1 on the list, but "getting the hell out of Afghanistan and Iran and cutting defense spending deeply" will also destroy hundreds of thousands of jobs. So will Gov. Brown's tax extensions. There is no free lunch here. Time to face reality. Past time, actually.
Originally Posted By Mr X That's some rather bizarre logic right there (although it cuts right to the heart of the military industrial complex)... By that logic, we should be picking more fights and starting more wars, since they are job creation machines.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<For instance, you seem upset about #1 on the list, but "getting the hell out of Afghanistan and Iran and cutting defense spending deeply" will also destroy hundreds of thousands of jobs.>> Not if those war machine assembly lines were producing something else, like new hybrid buses and high speed trains and wind turbines. Why should we allow China to nab this new industry and let them manufacture everything? We can take the billions we spend on defense and turn those dollars into green tech companies, creating far more jobs in the process. Problem is, that cuts into the insane profits of the military industrial complex and their middle eastern ties to big oil. Our country is basically going to hell so that a small minority at the top of the food chain can continue in their quest to rule the planet. They don't care about anyone but themselves and their fortunes. The tax cuts will never create one job that can be done more cheaply overseas. It's all a sham perpetrated on the public to give them cover for their greed. Enough.
Originally Posted By Tony C I was just looking at the list in the OP and thought so it's the Democrats that hate America?
Originally Posted By Labuda Tony - those are a list of Republican-proposed cuts... how do you translate that to Democrats hating America? (And, btw, welcome to WE - just note that things get much messier here than they do in the Community section where we all welcomed you last week or whenever it was that you got here!)
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Labuda, I don't believe that's what Tony C was implying. He's referring to the right wing noise machine mantra, "DEMOCRATS HATE AMERICA!!" which Fox News, Beck, Limbaugh, et al, spit out every single day during their broadcasts. Obviously, given the items on this GOP Hit List, Democrats don't hate America as much as the Republicans do. At least, the American middle class. I firmly believe the GOP loves Rich America and nothing else.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "For instance, you seem upset about #1 on the list, but "getting the hell out of Afghanistan and Iran and cutting defense spending deeply" will also destroy hundreds of thousands of jobs. So will Gov. Brown's tax extensions. There is no free lunch here." Come again? Are you suggesting that we stay in these two wars in order to save jobs? Really? I've never, ever heard that reasoning before. Moreover, are you also suggesting if we extend the taxes Brown is proposing to keep we'll LOSE jobs? Quite the opposite will happen.
Originally Posted By Tony C <<2. Zero out federal funding for National Public Radio and public television.>> I will say one thing that I sort of agree with the GOP in regards to this. I think a property like Seasame Street can sustain itself without federal funding. So I could understand cutting the cord with that part of public television. And besides if things get bad Disney can just scoop them up beside they already own the Muppets.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Not to stray too far OT, but my attitude towards Afghanistan and Iran has become more strident the more I talk to people in the military. In particular, we've become acquainted with some folks who report directly to the Pentagon. They're the ones that advocate leaving the tanks, tents, jeeps, everything behind and just load all the troops in planes and go home. They say unequivocally that we will not do any better in Afghanistan than we've already done, and we're simply spinning our wheels there now, wasting tons and tons of money along with the obvious lives. They send this message to anyone who will listen. After hearing all that they have to say and comparing it to what we see and read, I am behind that attitude 1,000%. It has nothing to do with patriotic fervor or a lack thereof, but rather a cold analysis of the facts.
Originally Posted By fkurucz I think that we should have at least one news outlet that is neither corporate owned nor beholden to corporate sponsors. I don't always agree with NPR's take on issues, but I think its important to have a different voice and perspective in the news.
Originally Posted By Fuls They need to cut alot more then the 60b. Yes 60b is better then the 7 billion the Dems want to cut but to small a cut .
Originally Posted By pecos bill Having a pointless two front war, with our current economical situation, is the pinnacle of insanity. The United States has already hit the iceberg, but the band is still playing, and people just dont understand what is happening. Precious metals and non perishable food items are starting to look better than ever.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Are you suggesting that we stay in these two wars in order to save jobs?<< Where in the world did I say any such thing? I said that ending the wars will cost jobs. That is certainly not the same thing as saying that we shouldn't end the wars. There are MILLIONS of public and private sector jobs in this country and around the world that are being paid in money that does not exist. That's not going to continue indefinitely. Or even for much longer. >>Not if those war machine assembly lines were producing something else, like new hybrid buses and high speed trains and wind turbines.<< Paid for by whom? Oops, there go your cuts. Wind turbines, and jobs for people who build them, are swell. But we don't have the money. >>Moreover, are you also suggesting if we extend the taxes Brown is proposing to keep we'll LOSE jobs? << As businesses scamper away to states with lower tax rates, yes. It's already happening. I'm very much in favor of the tax extensions. But I'm not naive about the consequences. Stop trying to find a good solution to this. There's not one, and there hasn't been since our guvmint decided to bail out the rich with a trillion of your as yet uncollected tax dollars.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 " I think a property like Seasame Street can sustain itself without federal funding" Maybe now. It's an institution now. But it never would have been developed in the first place. Nor will the next Sesame Street be developed. Nor the next The Civil War. And the money we're talking about is about 10 minutes of Pentagon funding. The GOP desire to defund PBS and NPR is ideolgical, not fiscal.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Nor the next The Civil War. << I think that might happen anyway. Oh, you meant the documentary. >>The GOP desire to defund PBS and NPR is ideolgical, not fiscal.<< Exactamundo.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Where in the world did I say any such thing? I said that ending the wars will cost jobs. That is certainly not the same thing as saying that we shouldn't end the wars." When your only response to my statement that we should pull out of the wars was to mention the loss of jobs, yeah, it's a perfectly logical thing to ask you. Note that I never said you said it, I asked if you were suggesting it. "As businesses scamper away to states with lower tax rates, yes. It's already happening. I'm very much in favor of the tax extensions. But I'm not naive about the consequences." Data? Because reasonable minds can differ. <a href="http://www.ecovote.org/blog/studies-not-stories-businesses-are-not-leaving-california" target="_blank">http://www.ecovote.org/blog/st...lifornia</a> Cited in the link above, a study from 9/10: <a href="http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/report/R_910JKR.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.ppic.org/content/pu...0JKR.pdf</a> "Stop trying to find a good solution to this. There's not one, and there hasn't been since our guvmint decided to bail out the rich with a trillion of your as yet uncollected tax dollars." Love your optimism. Where can the rest of us get some? I know how bad it is, both my wife and I work for local governments. Simply because we ARE government employees we've been under personal and professional attacks for quite some time now. If Brown doesn't get his extensions most every government worker we know and know of has been told they'll be lucky to be employed by the end of the year. Brown's options are all over the map, not because he's all over the map, but because the guy isn't going to have a choice. The cuts will be stupefying. Despite all that, we refuse to become a self-fulfilling prophecy and let anyone tell us to "stop trying to find a good solution to all this." Rather than delve further in that, let's just say again reasonable minds can differ. The solutions are there, they take time, and even if this state does approve the extensions, it will still be very painful. But it can be done.
Originally Posted By mawnck >> <a href="http://www.ecovote.org/blog/studies-not-stories-businesses-are-not-leaving-california" target="_blank">http://www.ecovote.org/blog/st...lifornia</a> << Hmmmm ... point conceded. (And, in a whiff of logic, WE spontaneously ceases to exist.) My general thesis doesn't change, though. We've had the "optimist" discussion before. If you're standing on a train tracks and you see the train headed your way, it's not optimism to hope it doesn't hit you. It's stupidity. I hope you can delve at least a little further into your "good solution." Cause I sure don't see one. There has been little to no change in the financial industry practices that caused the first Great Recession, except that now it's the US Government, not the TBTF banks, who holds all the bad debt. And the Great Recession was set off by rising gas prices. Any "good solution" MUST include raising taxes. And that ain't going to happen. Not now, not in the USA. By the way ... I'm not a government employee, but my job too probably goes away if Brown's extensions don't pass.
