Originally Posted By Dirk_D_from_Oregon I really like how I get admined for calling islamo-fascists animals.
Originally Posted By AZDLDad <a href="http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0601montini0601.html" target="_blank">http://www.azcentral.com/arizo narepublic/news/articles/0601montini0601.html</a> "Over the weekend, the U.S. State Department issued a report on terrorism that reads in part: "Terrorists have capitalized on liberal Canadian immigration and asylum policies to enjoy safe haven, raise funds, arrange logistical support and plan terrorist attacks." It seems that while we've been getting all worked up about a Spanish version of The Star-Spangled Banner, we should have been reworking the Canadian national anthem to something called Uh-Oh Canada." 1000 BPA's for 4,000mi - math quiz I see 22 "legal" regular U.S./Canada crossing checkpoints on the internet (<a href="http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/general/times/menu-e.html" target="_blank">http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/gen eral/times/menu-e.html</a>) I have no clue as to how many BPA's man each crossing point. As one recent news program pointed out at least one crosssing point in Michigan is on the "honor system" requiring you to stand in front of a video pay phone that doesn't work some of the time. 1000 BPA /20 Crossings = 50 per crossing point checkpoint/3 shifts = 16 BPA per shift. But, what about the rest of the 3,980 miles of unguarded land or lake frontage goes unguarded? Need we say more? If you'll take the prison poulation out to build the walls/fencing necessary they they can contribute back to society!
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Dabob, you must be able to give us at least ONE or two examples of people who have been arrested or taken away in the night because the Patriot made them victims where they lost their civil rights.> You missed the point, Beau. If it has happened, how would we know? It's about the larger principle of our government, too, Beau. You may be happy with the Executive having widely increased powers right NOW, because you like the current executive, and are certain he'd never abuse it. What about if we had a President Pelosi? I pick her because you don't like her and she's not running. But just as an example - would you be comfortable with her having all that power and comfortable that she'd never abuse it? Didn't think so.
Originally Posted By Dirk_D_from_Oregon >You missed the point, Beau. If it has happened, how would we know?< Because the liberal press has been waiting, prying, hunting and praying for anything even remotely close to someone being wronged and simlpy cannot find anything.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 The "liberal press" couldn't print anything about the NSA wiretaps or the phone bank database for years when they were going on, either, because it took that long to leak.
Originally Posted By Dirk_D_from_Oregon >The "liberal press" couldn't print anything about the NSA wiretaps or the phone bank database for years when they were going on, either, because it took that long to leak.< Ok, since the "leak" is out, where are all the people that have been violated?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 You missed the point. We only know about the program's existence, but no details about it. We wouldn't know if anyone has been violated. The point is we didn't even know about the existence of the program for years while it was going on. Everything's so secretive now, to say there have been no abuses is to overlook the obvious - it's all in the shadows.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<What I find interesting is that "friendly", "tolerant", "enlightened" and "neutral" Canada>> Yes Canada is so friendly, tolerant, enlightened and meutral. Thats why they allowed Al Jazera radio/ TV in their country before they ever allowed FOX in their country.
Originally Posted By Dirk_D_from_Oregon >You missed the point. We only know about the program's existence, but no details about it. We wouldn't know if anyone has been violated.< Sorry Bob. I got your point loud and clear. You cannot produce a single American Citizen negatively affected. How would anybody know? Are you serious? Don't you think the imaginary party victimized bu the evil Bush regime would get the ACLU to sue the government and alert the press? Give me a break while I try to jump back up on the turnip truck.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 You continue to miss the point (and it's Dave, not Bob). If we are not allowed to know (and we are not) if our phones are being tapped and what is being done with the info being compiled, how can anyone know what's happening? There's no oversight. Not congressional. Not court. The administration has claimed the right to do this without oversight because "they know best." Well, I'm sorry, but I don't trust any administration to always do the right thing. That's why our framers BUILT IN checks and balances, and oversight. But this adminstration claims that doesn't apply to them. We do know that they've arrested people who turned out to be innocent at Guantanamo. I do know that I was on a "no fly" list for a while, simply because I have the same name as someone they think might be up to something. We know that the regular police arrest people falsely all the time. So now - if someone arrested can simply disappear, without charges, without access to a lawyer - how are we going to know if that happened? If that person has been sent to Egypt to be tortured, how exactly are they going to contact the ACLU? Maybe the government is doing everything completely on the up and up. Maybe there's no political agenda. Maybe there's no incompetence (though considering how much of both we've seen with this administration, that's a big "maybe.") I'm still not comfortable with the goverment - ANY government - having that much power.
Originally Posted By Dirk_D_from_Oregon ok Dave. I guess we need to agree to dis-agree. While I do not share your opinion, I certainly respect the right for you to have it.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Because the liberal press has been waiting, prying, hunting and praying for anything even remotely close to someone being wronged and simlpy cannot find anything." You know, Fox is part of the press. It's not a monolith, and it's not all liberal. Most news outlets in this country are actually pretty much a bunch of flag wavers, as they are owned by giant corporations who would do well to keep the populace fat dumb and happy, which for the most part they do. As to someone being wronged? Easy. Rudy Padilla. He is a US citizen who was held without being charged for years. That's being wronged.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Yes Canada is so friendly, tolerant, enlightened and meutral. Thats why they allowed Al Jazera radio/ TV in their country before they ever allowed FOX in their country.<< And this is how they are thanked. We have to accept that there is a clash of civilazations going on here, and no amount of "listening" and "understanding" will win our enemies over. That said, I think that invading Iraq is NOT the answer.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy Do the people who claim they are having their civil rights violted on and that they are being spyed on ( no proof, but whatever ).. do these people think we should drop the partiot act and the NSA program? The democrats have had their chance to demond these programs be dropped, they even go into the hysterical conspiracies that we see on here... yet they vote to keep the programs. This is why these people are not serious and can't be trusted with any power for decades to come.
Originally Posted By jonvn What NSA program are you referring to? The patriot act? Parts of it should probably go. Parts of it should stay. It's very large. We need to actually target the people who are our enemies, not old ladies living off a pension Tampa. There is no reason for us to be tracking people for whom there is no reason to suspect they are part of any sort of seditious activity.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<I believe Canada did that without an equivalent of the "Patriot Act," no? Just solid police work.>> No Dabob, just as I suspected, the bust was made by wiretaps and " spying ". But we should drop all those programs because we have all lost our civil rights and people are being rounded up somewhere and locked away because they said the wrong thing on the phone to their mother. <a href="http://www.powerlineblog.com/" target="_blank">http://www.powerlineblog.com/</a> Canadian Terror Suspects Linked to International Groups The National Post is reporting that the 17 men arrested on terror charges in Toronto had contacts with terrorist organizations in other countries: A Canadian counter-terrorism investigation that led to the arrests of 17 people accused of plotting bombings in Ontario is linked to probes in a half-dozen countries, the National Post has learned. Well before police tactical teams began their sweeps around Toronto on Friday, at least 18 related arrests had already taken place in Canada, the United States, Britain, Bosnia, Denmark, Sweden, and Bangladesh. The six-month RCMP investigation, called Project OSage, is one of several overlapping probes that include an FBI case called Operation Northern Exposure and a British probe known as Operation Mazhar. The Toronto busts are linked to arrests that began last August at a Canadian border post near Niagara Falls and continued in October in Sarajevo, London and Scandinavia, and earlier this year in New York and Georgia. The FBI confirmed Saturday the arrests were related to the recent indictments in the U.S. of Ehsanul Sadequee and Syed Ahmed, who are accused of meeting with extremists in Toronto last March to discuss terrorist training and plots. The intricate web of connections between Toronto, London, Atlanta, Sarajevo, Dhaka, and elsewhere illustrates the challenge confronting counter-terrorism investigators almost five years after 9/11. Hmm. Do you suppose that breaking up these terrorist gangs may have involved intercepting some international phone calls and emails? No need to speculate: Linking the international probes are online communications, phone calls and in particular videotapes that authorities allege show some of the targets the young extremists considered blowing up. News reports also indicate that the Canadian authorities first became aware of the Toronto group through surveillance of password-protected web sites that promoted Islamic extremism. So the dark night of fascism is falling on Canada, too.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy The more I learn of this story the more it proves the point that the Patriot Act and various internet and phone spy programs ar not only smart, they work. These MUSLIMS were working on a chemical weapon attack that coud have killed thousands of people in pacifist, "why would the terrorists hurt us " Canada. They got busted because the autoritues monitored their websites and their communications. These people were being watched as they were on the internet! Should they now sue because their privacy was invaded? That is basically where we are at with the left who claim we have lost our civil rights by having these programs in place. As Dabob said.. "it was good policework"... that spied on people and got the job done.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <<I believe Canada did that without an equivalent of the "Patriot Act," no? Just solid police work.>> <No Dabob, just as I suspected, the bust was made by wiretaps and " spying ".> REALLY? What will they think of next? Beau, once again you miss the point. No one objects to spying on terrorists, or to international cooperation. In fact, everyone supports that. Many of us object to wiretapping people without oversight or proving probable cause to a court. Do you not see the difference? Yet, when we object to this, you go off the deep end and say that we want NO ONE to be spied on. It's ridiculous. Again, perhaps our Canadian friends can weigh in here, but if Canada doesn't have the equivalent of a Patriot Act, that means that warrants were obtained before the spying occurred, yes? That's all we're asking for, Beau. Without oversight and without probable cause (which could easily have been established for these guys, as your post proves), you have an administration who can spy on whomever it chooses. You may believe the current administration is beyond reproach and would NEVER do anything questionable, but if the priciple is established, then subsequent administrations would have the power also. Would you want a President Hillary to have to power to wiretap people or groups she didn't like without probable cause? And if there's no oversight, who would know who she was spying on? She might just spy on political enemies. Pro-life groups. Whomever. And no one would know, because no one could watch HER. And you have to be consistent, Beau. If you don't think she should have this power, then you shouldn't think that any president should.
