Originally Posted By brotherdave Wait...I thought del Toro was directing the Haunted Mansion re-imagining? Is that not happening now???
Originally Posted By skinnerbox I'm referring to del Toro's new role at DreamWorks as exec producer and director. Haunted Mansion is but one project. DreamWorks got del Toro for a myriad of projects. Way to lose focus, Disney. 8^P
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>"Marketing wizards"?<< Ah, you caught the sense in which I wrote that phrase...!
Originally Posted By cheesybaby My guess is that Haunted Mansion will go the way of Disney Double Dare...
Originally Posted By jedited When you have bad numbers, EVERYTHING else you say is BAD. Everyone has been quoting the website the-numbers.com and stating that Tron's DVD sales are only 784,453. BUT you didn't notice this VERY important note on their website "Sales tracking currently includes only the DVD versions of the movie. Blu-ray and HD DVD sales are not included at this time." Now since the Blu-Ray version of Tron Legacy was almost the same price as the DVD version (or in same cases, cheaper), don't you think that little piece of info is important?!?! Now since you (the people with bad numbers) say Tron is not worthy of a sequel and Disney (the people with ACCURATE numbers) say it is, then maybe YOU are wrong about your ASSUMPTIONS. Also, where are you getting your info about merch sales?!?! I have had a VERY hard time trying to find Tron figures at the MAJOR retailers in SoCal. So I dispute your claims.
Originally Posted By cheesybaby <<BUT you didn't notice this VERY important note on their website "Sales tracking currently includes only the DVD versions of the movie. Blu-ray and HD DVD sales are not included at this time.">> Didn't see that before - that is a HUGE qualifier. I would bet the Blu Ray sales of T:L are much higher than the DVD sales. <<Also, where are you getting your info about merch sales?!?!>> I always take that info with a grain of salt myself. Some say Tangled merch is flying off the shelves, others say they are not moving product. Same for Tron. Nobody on the boards knows.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Didn't see that before - that is a HUGE qualifier. I would bet the Blu Ray sales of T:L are much higher than the DVD sales.>> I did see the disclaimer, and ignored it. Why? Because Blu-Ray still hasn't passed regular DVD in sales for the majority of films. Most DVD owners are still using non-Blu-Ray players. The numbers are growing, but Blu-Ray is not the dominate format at this time. It's possible that more Blu-Ray discs have been sold for TRON: Legacy than regular DVD. But the fact remains that this film's DVD sales figures are far lower than what Star Trek sold in its first week. And the figures for Star Trek that I quoted earlier in this thread are for regular DVD discs only, as also reported by the-numbers.com. The only way that TRON: Legacy DVD sales figures could begin to match Star Trek DVD sales figures, is if the Blu-Ray were outselling the regular DVDs by a factor of 5 to 1. And I simply do not see that happening. The Blu-Ray market presence isn't that large yet. <<I always take that info with a grain of salt myself. Some say Tangled merch is flying off the shelves, others say they are not moving product. Same for Tron. Nobody on the boards knows.>> Actually, several folks here on LP do know. Lee MacDonald (leemac) personally knows folks inside Disney with Consumer Products. The toys and merch simply did not sell. The Disney Store put all of their TRON merch on a deep discount clearance sale after the holidays. Disney execs told Lee the stuff simply wasn't moving. That's probably why jedited can't find it anywhere... it's been removed from the shelves because of lack of sales. As for the video game, that was reported in the L.A. Times. Disney expected to sell at least one million copies for the holiday season. By the end of January, fewer than 200,000 copies had sold. Disney pulled the plug on the developer, Propaganda Games, and closed the studio. Expecting to sell a minimum of one million, and only selling one-fifth of that is a huge loss, no matter how you slice it. The facts speak for themselves. The film basically broke even. The toys and other merch did not sell. The video game did not sell. And the first week of sales for the DVD was nothing like Tangled's first week or the first week for similar films, like Star Trek. Just because your personal bias as a huge TRON fan who desperately wants to see a sequel and E-Ticket TRON rides in the parks has clouded your objective analysis of this situation, does not mean Disney's ability to objectively analyze the financial sustainability of the TRON franchise is toast. If Disney believes there's enough profit in this franchise to justify its continuation, it will do so. But given the decisions Disney has made in the recent past with other film franchises, I simply don't see it happening. Go ahead and dispute my claims all you want, jedited. But facts do not lie. TRON is not a profitable franchise. Period. If you choose to believe otherwise, that's your choice. But don't make statements about how the successful the franchise supposedly is around the globe based on your personal experience in one geographical location. Pull out a browser and Google this stuff yourself. It's not difficult information to find.
Originally Posted By jedited I disagree with your assesment concerning the DVD vs Blu-ray sales figures. I DON'T own a Blu-ray player, but it made more sense for me to purchase the Blu-ray combo pack (that included the DVD). Actually I think it was cheaper since I had a coupon that Disney had put out to push Blu-ray sales. To say what happened in the Disney stores is not a good case study since the Disney stores churn their inventory CONSTANTLY. They have limited space and they RARELY have the same thing twice. They don't even carry a very good selection of Disney DVDs (which are usually good sellers). They ONLY carry what is hot RIGHT NOW (or whatever Disney is trying to push that month). I'm not saying that Tron is the next Billion dollar franchise on the scale of the Disney Princesses, but I do think it taps into a market that Disney is DESPRETELY trying to capture and that is the young boys market (at least beyond the reach of the Cars franchise). Every boy I have talked to (and I talk to ALOT since I'm an adult leader in Scouting) LOVES Tron and that is a market that Disney doesn't have a lot of penetration. So Tron doesn't have to be a HUGE winner for Disney to consider it a success. As I said eariler, Disney must know something that we don't know since the trades are saying that Disney has given the go ahead to a Tron sequel AND if the movie was as much as a bomb as everyone seems to think it was, they would have pulled the plug on the animated series. Despite what some people think, Disney is not stupid. You don't consistetly profit $6+ BILLION annually by being stupid.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Believe whatever you wish to believe, jedited. TRON the franchise isn't as successful as you think it is. If Disney decides to continue the franchise knowing it's a financial gamble, then they're making a calculated decision to go after those teen boys they've so desperately courted for years. Personally, I think they'd be more successful doing it through the underdeveloped Marvel properties they now own, and not TRON. (And if you believe the rumors floating around now, Iron Man will get his attraction in DL before TRON does.) And you're incorrect in assuming that because this multinational entertainment conglomerate is so profitable overall, that Walt Disney Pictures never makes "stupid" decisions. Fact is, they make stupid decisions all the time. All studios do. It's the nature of the business. Remember... the same studio which brought you Prince of Persia and Sorcerer's Apprentice also brought you TRON: Legacy. Food for thought.
Originally Posted By jedited Making a lame movie is not stupid. Movie studios make money all day long making lame movies (see the before mentioned Fast and Furious, etc). What does well at the box office is sometimes more about luck than anything else. Also as stated before, Prince of Persia was not a big money loser. It wasn't a huge hit, but it did OK. A stupid move would be to make a sequel of a lame movie that did poorly at the box office.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Look... I get your devotion. You love TRON, your scouts love TRON, everybody loves TRON yadda yadda yadda. But you're selectively picking and choosing which arguments to use to support your agenda. I told you that one of the posters here on LP, whom long-time posters know well -- including the owners, Doobie and Rebekah -- has worked with Disney execs professionally for years. Lee knows many execs at the studios. And what they tell him, he sometimes passes along to the rest of us. According to Lee, the TRON merch was not selling well, and not just at the Disney Stores. It simply did not move. Most stores ended up discounting the merch after the holidays, in order to get rid of it. The TRON video game was an utter failure. It bombed, big time. Disney owned Propaganda Games, the creator of the game, and killed the studio in January. Video games are typically HUGE money makers for Disney franchises, most of the time. But TRON: Evolution lost money for them. It was a dismal failure. And the TRON DVDs should have sold better than they did their first week, in order to match the success of similar films, like Star Trek. But the sales were simply weak. Star Trek sold 3.5 million regular DVDs the first week of its release, and 1.1 million Blu-Ray discs. It was the biggest selling Blu-Ray title that week, in Nov 2009, just like TRON: Legacy was the #1 Blu-Ray title during its first week this month. But... and this is important... Star Trek did not sell more Blu-Ray discs than regular DVDs for either its first week or the entire run. Blu-Ray was still only 30% of what regular DVDs sold during its first week, with 37% of total sales for its run. According to Nielsen, the only film that has even come close to selling more Blu-Ray copies than regular DVDs is Avatar, at 49% (followed by Star Trek at 37%). So what's the likelihood of TRON selling more Blu-Ray discs than regular DVDs? Slim at best. Even if TRON: Legacy sold as many Blu-Ray discs as regular DVDs, that's still only about 1.5 million copies total for its first week. Star Trek sold 4.6 million copies total its first week. That's a huge difference. And 40% - 50% of a DVDs total sales for the entire release are typically met during its first week of release. So far, TRON is off to be mediocre start. For comparison, Tangled's combined DVD and Blu-Ray totals for its first week of release was 5.1 million copies (3.4 regular DVD and 1.7 Blu-Ray). That is a successful DVD launch. I highly doubt TRON got even one-fifth of that initial figure for its first week. According to insiders, this is where the decision to move forward currently lies, with the DVD sales. If they don't improve in the next few weeks, Disney may not decide to green light the sequel. Simply put, this franchise OVERALL has not been profitable. And that will be the main deciding factor for Disney to consider continuing the franchise.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Well, I was wrong about one statement and I'm willing to admit my mistake. Looks like TRON: Legacy will be the first DVD in history to sell more Blu-Ray discs than regular DVDs. Apparently, BD format sold more than regular DVD both in its first week and second week, according to blu-ray.com. By how many, I don't know. I'm still trying to find the numbers. So, your hopes for a sequel are still alive, jedited. I have no interest in wasting my money on any future TRON films (saw T:L twice in the theater and disliked it both times). But for those of you who love love LOVE this story... happy trails to you!!
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Found the info I was looking for. Apparently during its first week, Blu-Ray format accounted for 68% of TRON: Legacy's total sales. Wow! That's amazing, given that Avatar only reached 49% of sales in Blu-Ray (which is the only way to watch it, btw). TRON did drop to the #3 slot last week; who knows how many discs were sold. But looks like at least 2.4 million copies total were sold the first week, when factoring in Blu-Ray. It's still only half of what Star Trek did its first week, but not as weak as I first thought. You TRON fans, jedited, had better hope those weekly numbers don't continue to fall, if you want your sequel. That's the only thing that matters now.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Good question, croc. I've wondered that myself. I think closing Propaganda Games would be a write off, because they only produced two games, one of which was TRON: Evolution. The other game, Turok, was released in 2008 and also sold poorly. No way the company didn't lose millions of dollars before closing. The theatrical release of the film broke even at best. Had it crossed the $400 mil mark, it would have been marginally profitable. It's possible it did turn a small profit, but only around $10 mil or $20 mil at the most. But given the production costs combined with the high distribution and promotion costs, I don't see how it could have been profitable, with taking only 70% - 80% of $398 million. Toys and merch? Again, most of it was sold off in clearance sales. Developing toys and clothing isn't cheap. This is another area where Disney Consumer Products either lost money or broke even. I'm guessing the former, given how deep the discounting was after the holidays. Now we have the DVDs. The first week was very strong overall, with about 2.4 million discs sold. TRON: Legacy won that initial week on Blu-Ray and came in second for all formats. About 68% of discs sold the first week were Blu-Ray, and more than half of discs sold the second week were also Blu-Ray (I don't have an exact percentage yet). But... T:L dropped to third place on the Blu-Ray charts for its second week (lagging behind Potter at #1 and Narnia at #2) and fourth place in all formats. And for the latter half of its third week, it's fallen out of the Top Ten for Blu-Ray and out of the Top Twenty for regular DVD. It's currently sitting at the #12 spot on the Blu-Ray charts and #22 for all formats. That's a major drop in DVD sales which historically rarely reverses. Most titles sell at least 50% of their entire release during the first week, so I don't expect T:L to sell more than 5 or 6 million copies total, for all formats. That's not a strong number for the entire release, given that Star Trek sold between 9 and 10 million total. Apparently, the majority of the fans who wanted to buy the DVDs have already bought them, given this huge drop between week #2 and week #3. So... is TRON a tax write-off for Disney? I think so. I don't see any profitability for the franchise overall, except in the DVD market. It's simply not there.
Originally Posted By DlandDug I would think Disney has all the "tax write-off" they need for the next dozen years with Mars Needs Moms!
Originally Posted By brotherdave And will most likely have major hits with Pirates IV and Cars 2 opening soon. I still don't think Tron: Legacy was a major bomb, but it certainly isn't as big a hit as the Mouse House intended. If it only cost half as much to make, then it would have been considered a "hit". But its production and distribution costs have made it much less profitable than they were hoping for. It just MIGHT be enough to warrant a third film, but I have a strong hunch that it will suffer greatly from budget cuts from the head office. Personally, I still think the overall "look" of the film is still worthy of WDI exploring into making attractions from. I truly believe that even if the film were a downright bust, the overall appeal of a Tron themed attraction could sell merchandise in the parks, especially all that "glowing" stuff that they like to push during parades. Tron could make a really cool dark ride or "dark" thrill ride (like a launch coaster in the dark ala Space Mountain or Rock n' Roller Coaster). I'm sure the theme will appeal greatly, especially to the under 30 crowd, especially pre-teen boys. And those expensive "glow-in-the-dark" alcoholic drinks that DCA sells during ElecTRONica have been quite successful from what I've read... THAT could be a major selling point for a Tron based theme attraction in the parks.
Originally Posted By relapse Very interesting thread, I came here because I googled Tron Legacy dvd sales, but there seems to be a lot of Tron hate here from certain people. One thing that stuck me to the point of actually joining this forum was the notion that leading into Tron Legacy that Tron had a fan base similar to Star Trek. Surely no-one actually thinks this, Comic-con is only a niche audience and is no clear representation of a majority of the public. Star Trek's fan base is second only to Star Wars as far as Sci-fi movies go, there have been over 10 movies and numerous Trek TV shows and to suggest anything other than Star Trek having a fanbase of millions is laughable. By comparison the original Tron was never overly successful and has survived over the years on it's cult status, the fanbase of Tron prior to Legacy would have been lucky to have even been a tenth of Treks. Honestly skinnerbox I am not sure what your position is about Star Trek, but if Trek gets a sequel then I am not sure how you can try and argue that Tron shouldn't. I would even debate the fact that I feel Tron given it's small starting fanbase has more potential to grow than Trek. Dont get me wrong, I loved Trek (I own the blu ray) and I would love to see a sequel, but I cant see a sequel for the Trek reboot being able to pull in a bigger audience and can only see it being able to pull in similar numbers. Tron may be similar to that, but I would argue that Tron's fan base has grown substantially since Legacy was released and potentially the blu-ray and DVD rental audience may also help grow the audience for the next movie. You may ask my rationale for thinking this, but I know a few people that did not want to see it because it was a Disney movie (they wrongly assumed that because of the Disney branding that it was a live action movie for kids) and that they would check it out on rental instead. I actually lent my blu ray to one of those particular friends who was blown away by the special effects and make the comment that it was not what he expected at all and he even made the point that he wished now that he went as saw it when it was released theatrically. I know that it is not a basis to argue on, but if there are people that were indifferent to Tron due to the Disney branding that the audience could potentially increase for the next movie through expose through DVD rentals and netflix. On the video game front I would class myself as a gamer more than a movie buff, but honestly has there even been a decent selling licensed game ?? Licensed games have a horrible reputation amongst gamers and they are avoided like the plague. Take Avatar for instance, the biggest movie of all time yet the game ships over 2 million and only 700k copies were sold at retail. To it's credit though Tron Evolution was actually semi-decent which is a very rare thing when it comes to licensed games. I honestly am not sure why companies continue to persist with movie tie in games because they just are not successful at all. For me the big issue that people are overlooking for Disney is that Tron taps into a new market for them. This isnt Monsters Inc or Cars which are aimed at 5 year olds, this is a franchise which is aimed at an older demographic and a market where Disney have struggled with in the past. This has been highlighted by the blu ray percentages, sales of this movie wont be for parents buying it on dvd for their 5-8 year old kids, the market for this movie is teens and up which explains why a majority of Tron's sales are for the blu ray copies. Also on the sales side dont forget that the Tron releases have been staggered, it came out in Europe mid April and was only released here in Australia last Wednesday (20 April) so there will still be international sales to factor in with the DVD and Blu Ray sales whereas Trek DVD and Blu Ray received a world wide release on the same day. All in all, I can see how there is some trepidation in Tron's future, but what I am shocked about is that the execs expected Avatar numbers for Tron. That was just never going to happen, I think if Tron managed $500,000,000 it would have been a great result. I do think the potential growth in the franchise is worth one more movie. Transformers 2 (despite it being one of the worst movies of all time) outperformed the first based on the growth of the Transformers audience due to the DVD viewership. The same is possible for Tron 3 should it happen.
Originally Posted By relapse One point I did leave out is that you keep saying that DVD's sell 50% of their total sales in the first week yet you keep stating that Star Trek sold 3 million in the first week and has now sold 10 overall. Seems funny that you keep trying to discredit everything about Tron and compare it with Star Trek, yet your example is a total contradiction to the point that you are trying to make. If Tron was a failure then by those same standards the Star Trek reboot was a dismal failure by comparison considering it's massive starting market.
Originally Posted By shockwave You discounted Blu-Ray sales, which are crucial to assessing the relative success or failure of this film. If you do the math from this list <a href="http://www.theboxofficejunkie.com/2011/04/dvdblu-ray-sales-tron-legacy-no-match.html" target="_blank">http://www.theboxofficejunkie....tch.html</a>, in the first week alone, Tron on Blu Ray sold easily an estimated $30 million worth of blu ray copies. And that's not even counting the other packages, like the five-disc format priced at $50 a pop. When all is said and done, TL will get it's sequel. As stated many times before, Disney is looking at the potential of this becoming a franchise. It's got all the right ingredients to become bigger than what it is now. The gimmicks are there. The quirkiness of the TRON world is there. Disney will take that chance to grow this. And well they should.
