Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<In regards to quality. This is a percieved thing.>> Exactly. 25-30 years ago Detroit was building junk. But this is not 25-30 years ago. The stuff Detroit puts out today is just as good as the foreign makes in quality. In fact I believe that this year Ford surpassed Toyota and is now #1 in initial quality.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom The clear majority of people in this country do not think that the US Federal Government should be bailing out the big three again. While just about every other union out there is willing to make consessions including Police, Fire, Teachers, Airline personnel, etc. For some reason the UAW doesn't think they should have to. And the UAW has not taken an economic hit nearly as severe as the Airline Industry has over the past seven years. How can a UAW member look the entire nation in the eye and say "we" deserve better than all of you.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<The stuff Detroit puts out today is just as good as the foreign makes in quality.>> And yet for the most part Detroit still doesn't build the kind of car I want. I don't exactly know how I feel about the government having to step in and bailout yet another industry. Seems like someone should have to pay... maybe starting at the top. Doesn't seem right that execs can pull down big money and suffer almost not at all when they screw up.
Originally Posted By johnno52 "And yet for the most part Detroit still doesn't build the kind of car I want." How do you think I feel as a GM worker? I have even less choice however when the Pontiac Vibe/Toyota Matrix came out it was just what I wanted, small, economical, hatch back and proven a Toyota engine and transmission. Well the car has been super and now over 6 years old and honestly never been in for warranty work. However at 130,000km (out of warranty) the transmission locked up doing 60mph and burnt out. The irony of this is that I work at a transmission plant! :-( Our transmission at Windsor On (4 speed auto) had outclassed the Toyota and every other in quality and price and no it wouldn't fit into the Vibe.
Originally Posted By gottaluvdavillains Right now we have Ford Excursion Ford Probe Ford Cargo Van Subaru Forester Cars no longer have Ford Aerostar (96) Ford F-150 (92) Ford Aerostar (92) Mazda 626 (96) Ford Aerostar (87?) Geo Prizm (90) Ford Probe (89) For some reason we have always looked at other brands but always end up back with Ford.
Originally Posted By fkurucz I too will add that we have had better luck with domestics than with imports. <<I'll use my aunt as an example. Her Oldsmobile Omega was a bad car. She can't quite get over it. When her Lexus gives her grievance it's "The mechanics fault".>> I am convinced that many an import owner goes into heavy duty denial when their super car gives them trouble. I once had a Nissan Maxima that had the tranny computer die at 60K miles. Another Japanese import gave us plenty of trouble: several recalls, rattles, the heater fan squealed in the winter, even after it was replaced. I have a friend who also has a Maxima with about 100K miles. His manual gearbox makes all kinds of weird sounds (and he has babied that car). I mention his and my old Maxima because Consumer Reports at the time had it as one of the most reliable cars on the market. << She claims my mom must be treating her van with kids gloves for it to last.>> I've been told that as well.
Originally Posted By avromark Part of it may be where I live, the heavier the vehicle the more likely it is to last. We're not small people the males in my family are all over 6 ft. We also use our vehicles to haul and tow. My sister has a late model MX-5 and it's been running faultless. My sister is an alpha personality so you may guess that it's not led the easiest life. And she still can't shift smoothly (although I think she likes bucking the car). I'd have to say the average car made this century is better (initial and long term) then say a car from the 80's. Cars tend to go far now without lubing, go a long distance before tune-ups etc. That said when they go wrong, they cost $$ now. Even the least reliable car out there should last a few years with minimum fuss.
Originally Posted By dshyates I had an '89 Pontiac Grand Prix. The paint was coming off it in chunks bigger than my hand at 30K miles. The dealer said it was my fault because I left it sitting in the sun. My lawyer convinced him to repaint it. The same car had the cam shaft break in half and lift the headers off both sides of the engine resulting in valves and what not spilling onto the highway. This happened twice before the warrenty ran out and the 3rd time 1000 miles over warrenty. I traded it for a Ford Explorer that had 19 factory recalls in the first 2 years. Now I own a 2006 PT Cruiser and my folks own a Jeep Cherokee as does my brother. In September both my parents and my brother had the compuster go out on their jeeps, and the computer on my PT went out in Oct. All 3 repairs were $800 a piece in the span of just over 3 weeks. $2400 in car repairs for the same problem on 3 different vehicles in 3 weeks is too much. I won't buy another American car period.
Originally Posted By avromark ^^ Just wait until you have to do an out of warranty repair on awd 2008 Highlander. Luckily mine was just replacing a bent latch (AWD was fixed before it hit 60,000) On my mom's 2004 Sienna the quote was in the 5-digit range for a sludge problem. Can't we get better quality gas then the gunk the oil companies force on us?
Originally Posted By mawnck >>I believe that this year Ford surpassed Toyota and is now #1 in initial quality.<< Key word, "initial." Check back with them in 3 years. After my terrible experiences with Big 3 cars over the 40-some years of my life (including several cars owned by family members and a Plymouth Voyager I bought in **1997**), I would never dream of buying another one. If you GAVE me a brand new Chevy Volt today and it was the most beautiful car I'd ever seen, I'd be at the Toyota dealership trading it in on a Prius tomorrow. It is not patriotic or reasonable to support companies that have made unreliable junk for 60+ years. I feel for the workers, but I just can't subsidize them without a car that I can afford to keep running!
Originally Posted By avromark Well Accord almost sold as well as Taurus in the early 90's, here you'd be hard pressed to see the occasional Accord. They have a tendency to rust out. No manufacturer is perfect, none is 100% evil. I live just over an hour from a Lexus plant (RX350), about 2 hours from the MDX plant. There are Toyota employees on my street. They're idling the RAV4 plant in January (less then 15 minutes from me). Now I know the American government wants to support American jobs. But if domestics were truly as horrible as some make out. Well then I'm guessing pretty much everyone who will ever need an Ambulance is SOL. The ambulance will break down on the way back to the hospital. You'll just have to wait for a dependable ambulance to roll along. Of course Police cars explode the moment they go into a chase. Since you know they lead a very easy life. With the budgets of most police departments operating cost must be a factor. I guess they'll be much better off with a fleet of Avalon's. I'm sure then the cruisers would last much longer, be cheaper to run and would illicit glee from all officers with the increased comfort they're sure to provide. You're sending me a Lincoln Limo? Are you nuts? Don't you know it will strand me on the way to the funeral. The transmission will turn itself into shrapnel and will forever traumatize me.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Of course Police cars explode the moment they go into a chase.<< Now you're being silly. I'm not talking about daily explosions, but more mundane things like power windows jamming up, and paint peeling off, and radiators leaking, and batteries suddenly discharging, and heaters smoking, and windshield wipers coming on whenever they feel like it (which was still happening when I unloaded the thing, after four attempts by two different dealerships to repair it). Stuff that costs $800 and three days to repair. The sort of things that happened every month or two in the Plymouth, and that have NEVER ONCE happened in the Corolla I've been driving for the last 9 years. I wasn't traumatized, but I was frequently stranded. Police and Ambulance have full-time mechanics. I don't.
Originally Posted By avromark You make it sound like all Domestics are problems. My bias is I currently own both Japanese and Domestic vehicles. Also if overall quality was that poor, I doubt you'd ever see older domestics on the street. Especially those owned by those who can't fix them. Even if they have full time mechanics (which smaller towns wouldn't) if an import was that superior in reliability they would switch over en masse. They could use the savings to hire more police, run more community programs. If they all had constant small problems. Fleet vehicles that may see 24 hour use can't always be taken off the road. My local Police department switched their SUV's to Pathfinders for about 3 years before going back to domestics. The funny thing is I've had small problems with both. I've actually been more days without my import CUV made by Japans #1 auto manufacturer. And in Japan they don't use Camry's for taxi's, Japan has a special fleet service model (Used in Hong Kong as well, probably other places I haven't been to) It's shorter and built for severe duty. (And more comfy imho).
Originally Posted By avromark I'm pretty sure any compact regardless of manufacturer wouldn't last too long with me
Originally Posted By johnno52 "How can a UAW member look the entire nation in the eye and say "we" deserve better than all of you." Tom is that how we come across to you? I have 2 children with their Masters Degree and combined have not yet make more money than my highest year. Am I happy with that? not likely! I made sure that they went to University so they did not have to do what I did throughout my working life. They graduated debt free thanks to my wife's and my incomes. They do not resent my income or benefits and wish one day they receive the same which I'm sure they will. I started worked at 15 and wasn't till I was 29 before I "lucked in" to an Auto job. My wife has also been working for 36 years and has no pension or benefits Is it my fault that Walmart can make Billions yet pays its employees minimum wage? How many families can live on $10 per hour and pay for a mortgage, Car, and educate their children? My children also had part time jobs to supplement paying for their needs. No Tom we don't deserve any more than the rest of the working world however, they don't deserve less than we get either. We work to improve our lives not the other way around.
Originally Posted By avromark ^^ Pretty much the gist of it I would have to agree, today's wages and standard of living is lower overall. Call Centres have replaced offices. The outsourcing company makes the money and the workers get paid far less, just so the company can save some money. Don't you know executives need their huge bonuses. (Despite the fact in many companys think about it, at say $12 an hour how many people could be additionally hired or given raises for just a $500,000 bonus, keeping in mind many bonuses are larger than that). The middle class seems to be a dying breed. Even if you get "edumacated" many courses don't really lead to a job (Ever see many job listings for needing a Historian?) or are so full of graduates even though their is a large number of grads, the number of openings is greatly exceeded (Computer Science anyone?). Then there are other fields that require more (here we'd have to say that would be most medical fields ie, doctors, nurses) and many qualified candidates but the schools are keeping entrance numbers artificially low) for example there is a shortage in both those fields, yet the acceptance is still similar to what it was when there wasn't a shortage. Guess that would mean sharing the wealth right?
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<No Tom we don't deserve any more than the rest of the working world however, they don't deserve less than we get either. We work to improve our lives not the other way around.> You don't see Ford asking for money at this time. Maybe GM, and Chrysler need to reexamin what they are doing wrong. The first warning sign was when Daimler ditched Chrysler. Daimler has a union member on their board of directors ( most Germany companys do ). The next warning sign was when the airline unions have repeatedly negotiate their contracts just to keep their jobs, same goes for Police, Fire, Government Employees ( Federal union employees excluded ). And millions of nonunion employees never had an opportunity to renegotiate salary instead they were simply layed off to cut cost for their employer or their employer simply shut down ( like Circuit City ). So why do the UAW expect special treatment over these others? The major problem with the economy is the "Walmartization" of the USA. Most Americans have the mindset to buy the very cheapest product with no though as to where it is made, be it the USA, China, Mexico. We have allowed companyies we subscribe to such as at&t, Dell Computers, Gateway, and many cable companies and medical providers to outsource large portions or their services to off shore service providers. This allows money to flow out of our country and not return. The unions have contributed to this problem by refusing to negotiate salaries, maintain outdated retirement benefit expetations and providing substandard products. As a result corporations have sought the cheap offshore solutions to meet the american expatation of "cheap" while keeping salaries of corporate officers high and paying stockholders ( many, many of whom are union workers ) unreasonable returns.
Originally Posted By avromark Hey Hey Hey now, provincial civil servants are underpaid, especially those who also work in the private sector! *g* Keep in mind Tom a strong neighbour(s) however is a good thing. For the cynical if only to stop illegal immigrant workers. It's not just the consumer to blame however it's also the executives. Part of the problem with corporations is their mindset of ever expanding profits. They're not happy just making a profit. They're ready to sacrifice workers, product, service, quality etc in the name of improving the bottom line so shareholders can be happy. Those retirement benefits aren't outdated, who wants to lead a more restrictive retirement? Especially with the increased life expectancy. Maybe we've let things like wages/benefits slide. I'm shocked that many of my counterparts across the border (while having less taxation) have less benefits. I'd hate to have to pay a penny for any medical need. I can't see why massage therapy isn't included, nor paternity leave. As it is I feel 3 weeks of holidays isn't enough... And before you go on me, countries like Germany pay high wages and offer things like more generous vacations...
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<Part of the problem with corporations is their mindset of ever expanding profits. >> That is what corporations do. But when it comes to the auto industry and the UAW its an unsustainable business model. Hense the reason why they have their collective hands out in Washington DC right now. The UAW has a building and political presence in Washington DC, its not as if they a silent partner in all of this. <<They're not happy just making a profit.>> No, it really is all about turning a profit. These corporations only seek to meet stockholders expectations and they will do anything in the short term or long term to accomplish those goals. <<They're ready to sacrifice workers, product, service, quality etc in the name of improving the bottom line so shareholders can be happy.>> The people in the USA want it "cheap". Comporations are just doing what it takes to provide "cheap". And Labor Unions also contribute to this. The Labor Unions have ignored for years jobs being offshored. Talk about whistling by the graveyard. NAFTA anyone? <<Those retirement benefits aren't outdated, who wants to lead a more restrictive retirement? Especially with the increased life expectancy.>> Those retirement benefits that the UAW members enjoy are unrealistic and unsustainable. Especially in a time when most all other Labor Union members are now loosing retirement benefits or those who are already retired now have to contribute to some monthly retirement benefits such as contributing to monthly medical benefits, which is going on in nearby Dekalb County where retired Police and Fire have to contribute to retain monthly medical benefits for their Families. Individual benefits are still covered. <<I'm shocked that many of my counterparts across the border (while having less taxation) have less benefits. I'd hate to have to pay a penny for any medical need.>> I would prefer lower taxes. There is no way I could ever go for a legally mandated single payer medical program. In fact the rest of the world agrees with me. Canada is unique with that one. <<And before you go on me,>> I'm not going to go off on you, I promise! <smile> <<countries like Germany pay high wages and offer things like more generous vacations>> In many European countries Labor and Business seem to have a much better working relationship. Except when everyone goes on vacation in August and leaves hundred to die in the Paris heat.
Originally Posted By johnno52 I don't think $1876 per month till I die and drug,dental and vision coverage till 65 is unrealistic. Thanks to my country's medical coverage GM's legacy cost is very low. So you think it will be okay to take the retirement benefits away from an 80 year old retiree? What should he do go out and look for work? Anyone making a good wage would rather have lower taxes and pay for his/her own medical benefits, but someone making $30,000 per year would save far less in taxes and pay the same for the same medical benefits, a bit selfish there! Is this why so many poor Americans have no coverage?
