Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << When you have many families in America trying to scrape by with Husband and Wife COMBINED not making $60K per year, how can you expect them to spend their tax dollars making sure you can keep making what you make? >> If we see wage deflation in the auto industry, it will spread rapidly through the rest of the economy. I don't think anyone understands this. I've said it before -- Deflation = Great Depression. We can't afford to take a chance on concessions in the auto industry to spread to wages across the entire working class. Our economy won't recover for decades if that happens.
Originally Posted By avromark The problem isn't the autoworkers are over waged or benefitted the problem is many other industries are underwaged. What I thought was great about America was the large middle class. Now it seems to be the wealthy, a tiny middle class and everyone else. The root of the problem is wealth distribution. Auto workers are a bastion of middle class wealth. Why get rid of middle class wealth and not expand it? You can only go so far on credit, Stocks are essentially "taking" money from the work and misfortunes of others. Capitalism at it's finest. Whatever happened to fair wages for fair work? Just play the market wisely you can make a fortune while sipping your drinks in Hawaii.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<Please tell me ONE OTHER OCCUPATION that requires nothing other than a High School Diploma where a person can average $60K per year.>> Realtor Mortgage broker longshoreman construction worker (depends on trade) plumber electrician I am troubled by this attitude of "unless you have some difficult degree you should be a pauper" that has become so prevalent in this land of ours. It seems to me that the billionaires have done a bang up job of getting the serfs to be jealous of each other and not work together, and when that happens the only ones who win are the billionaires.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<When you have many families in America trying to scrape by with Husband and Wife COMBINED not making $60K per year, how can you expect them to spend their tax dollars making sure you can keep making what you make?>> Perhaps the reason these people are so poor is because they don't have a good union. An lest those of us with degrees start to feel smug, the billionaires are undermining us as well with globalization and guest workers.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Realtor Mortgage broker longshoreman construction worker (depends on trade) plumber electrician>> Well, the top two aren't making squat these days and the bottom three require training, apprenticeship and licensing. They require more than a High School diploma. << An lest those of us with degrees start to feel smug>> I'm not smug at all. As I've said many times, neither my wife nor I have a degree. We’ve worked very hard and had the good fortune of being in the right place at the right time once or twice during our careers. But generally people in our field, without a degree, would make 50-60% of what we make. And that would be a whole lot less than what the average autoworker makes.
Originally Posted By avromark ^^^ However these days without a degree can people get to where you are as often as back in the day? Too much emphasis is placed on degrees that have little bearing on the real world. I'm amazed at how many of my so called educated co-workers have such a little grasp on reality.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<However these days without a degree can people get to where you are as often as back in the day?>> No; it would be very difficult. The great majority of people working for both my wife and me have degrees. These days entry level positions in our fields frequently require degrees. But that is part of my point. In today’s market people without degrees just don't earn much. Not that it is fair, because it isn't. MANY jobs require a degree when there is no real reason you would have to have one. They just require it because they can, and because so many high schools today turn out illiterates.
Originally Posted By avromark ^^ That said I work in fields where degrees are mandatory. Can't really get licenced without out. But some of the beliefs of my colleagues in my dept and others is amazing. Oh the lazy bums at the grocery store don't earn their money. Last time I checked most stores don't staff to peak levels, they staff to average levels. Also the billable hours to the gov't for services rendered in my dept starts at over 80 an hour. Yes we don't get the $88 an hour to ourselves. But last time I checked most cashiers make less than $10 an hour here. Also most cashiers work the full hour they're paid. In my dept to be honest most people will work less then 15-30 minutes per patient, yet each patient is still billed a full hour to OHIP. (Flat rate per treatment type). Many of my coworkers don't work full hours. Yet they're paid for them. It seems to me the "higher" up you go the less time you actually spend on work. I also note that there is a fair # of colleagues at my old hospital that talked down to patients or made inappropriate comments. The problem is too many people with degree's are literally educated dimwits.
Originally Posted By johnno52 "Sorry to the autoworkers here and I'm not trying to pick on anyone. But even excluding benefits, the typical autoworker is paid about $30 per hour. That amounts to a little over $60K per year. Please tell me ONE OTHER OCCUPATION that requires nothing other than a High School Diploma where a person can average $60K per year." I agree with you RT we are very lucky to get this. However must I be denied a good paying job because I have very little education? I didn't jump at the chance to go to work at 15. My family's poverty required that I help so we could have enough food on the table. We get paid well not for the amount we know but for the work we do! The majority of assembly jobs are mundane and repetitive. Most educated people could not put up with this as they feel that they are above this and would run the minute they found another well paying job. My last job which finally disabled me, required me to put 4 small parts into a valve body all within 7.5 secs. This is done 1500 times a shift (now up to 1650)I calculated 6000 arm movements a day. I had 2x10 minute breaks a 20 minute lunch and an additional 20 minute relief. If I needed to go to the bathroom I had to call for a replacement before I could go. If I left the line without a relief I could be disciplined. I did not get any paid sick days unless I was off by a doctor after 7 days. I wore a TENS machine for my chronic back pain while working. My first job in 1981, I was on a machine that sprayed coolant on me which had biocides mixed in with it. The air was so thick in the summer months the ceiling was full of coolant mist. I can go on and on about the jobs and believe me my plant was one of the better ones. I had the pleasure of visiting a plant in Flint Mi, I really felt sorry for them. There many jobs in the plants that are very good and easy don't get me wrong, but in many instances they are high seniority jobs and in many car assembly plants only attainable after 25-30 years.
Originally Posted By johnno52 "Well, the top two aren't making squat these days and the bottom three require training, apprenticeship and licensing. They require more than a High School diploma." Actually RT all Apprentices in our plant come from the floor (hourly workers), and they only need a highschool diploma. A test is given and the highest score gives you a choice of which trade you want to go in. The training is official and is licensed.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip ^^^ I would not disagree with one word you say. I know I could not do an autoworker’s job. After a lifetime of desk jobs I would have neither the strength nor the stamina. I do think I could deal with the mundane and repetitive though. I PRAY FOR the mundane and repetitive. In fact that is what I hope to do for 10-15 hours per week after retiring next June. ;-) I would never say you are not worth what you are paid. I think most of us are worth considerably more than what we are paid. I just think the UAW needs to make concessions. The economy is crap. Most Americans have had it up to their necks with government loans/bailouts. The auto industry had the misfortune of holding their hands out last. The sad truth is that the UAW has to make concessions or the Big Three will be in bankruptcy. Would autoworkers rather give up a bit in benefits and avoid being stuck in a job where they make $7.50 per hour asking folks if they want fries with that? I certainly think that they should
Originally Posted By avromark Min wage here is $8.00 an hour, (Which works out to less than $7.50). It's more of an issue of the elite being "slightly" overpaid. You could have tried out for Woodstock (Toyota) Assembly, at least they're only being idled 5 days in June. Some people I went to school are working there. They don't like it. Now a question is would you rather do a repetitive job or work in a Call Centre? I wish we could have jobs in fields like film restoration/colourization. Trascription of older books into e-form, more preservation and restoration of all buildings. More smooth roads (those who live in RT and my climate knows what this is like with the constant frost heave every year). When I was vacationing in South Asia they still have doormen (for fast food places no less!). Too bad we couldn't return to the days where 6 people ran out to fill your car with gas, check your oil, tires, clean ALL your windows. Now at full service centres your lucky to get your front window kind of cleaned.
Originally Posted By johnno52 Mark I work at the Windsor Transmission Plant which is slated to close in 2010. We build a 4 speed automatic and is being replaced by a 6 speed. Almost all of us have 28 years seniority and nobody under the age of 45. Thanks RT for seeing my point and I do see yours. We are giving concessions as we did on our last contract and yes there is more to come and we know this. We have been improving GM's bottom line with improvements to the hour per unit schedule. We know about the Foreign Transplants figures and we have been working towards them. This takes time and with this crisis there will be a big push towards it.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip ^^^ Why has that changed? It has changed because we all live massively better than the middle class people in the 50's used to live. I grew up in a family with two college educated parents. My mother had and Bachelor's in Elementary Education. My father had a Bachelor's in Music, a Master's in Finance, and a J.D. (Law Degree). We never had more than one car in our family until I had left for college. We finally got both Central Air Conditioning and a 19" color TV when I was in High School. Our vacations were spent going to one or the other set of grandparent's homes. And our family was very definitely middle class if not upper middle class. Now people who are poor have more than we had. What is the difference? Cheap goods increase our standard of living more quickly than better wages. Sad but true. We have seen the enemy, and he is us.
Originally Posted By avromark Do you know if the DC van plant in Windsor will be closing? Isn't the American Dream about striving for more constantly. According to my dad I don't know if this is rose coloured glasses or not though. The attention to detail was better back then. Things were made heavier so they lasted longer. McDonald's were clean. People who worked at McDonald's actually gave a damn. Oh and to be of an age when a bit of fat on a steak was good, and you could have a real soda I just don't think only the rich should get richer.
Originally Posted By gottaluvdavillains You know I think in some industries unions are still a must. My dad retired a few years back under the Teamsters Union 170. My Grandfather went out on disability 27 years ago due to an on the job injury - Once he hit 63 his full pension kicked in. He was in the Operating Engineers 3 union. My father did graduate HS - and started driving trucks shortly after. My Grandfather didn't even make it into High School - But was able to join the OE Union after the Korean War. Both were able to live comfortably thanks to the Union's. And had a nice retirement. Along with the Auto Makers, Hotel Service, Truck Drivers and such - some unions still have a place in the country.
Originally Posted By avromark In risk of my own job, Management is less needed then front line workers. You can cut more managers then front line workers. Many companies seem to be management heavy these days. Marketing is such a waste of man hours. Let's just all go back to the days of jingles and Berma Shave signs. Yes companies should have positions, however I don't need a company to have a position statement to tell me what they stand for I should just know it. Roots = Canadian Nike = Super Sports I like how all companies these days have a few words they feel attribute to themselves then brandish those words on the walls. Whatever happened to common sense? Guess I'm a backwards hick. OK if the Big 3 fail, what next. Will there be a North American brand? Will we be driving a Magna? Or will we see prices skyrocket as the imports take over the market. Or will we be driving a Chinese "Cherry"?
