Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>>> but the option is open to everyone equally << "...who comes early." >>I know there are those of you who consider this "fair" and "equal." I personally think it would be fairer if it allowed EVERYONE who came into the park AT ANY TIME to get at least one FP for that day. How to implement that? I don't know. Disney can work that out.<<<< That's simple. Disney should do what OLC has been doing at TDL for the past 3 yrs: Administer FP in a lottery-style system. That is how OLC grants the limited capacity seating for the castle shows (YES! seating! There is NO standing in the central areas of the Castle forecourt for special castle stage shows.) That way, guests who arrive at TDL at 9am or 6pm have *equal* chance to win a seat for the shows thru the day/night. Similarly.. Disney could offer FP as a lotto-style "chance to win", while maintaining the service FREE OF CHARGE, just like the TDL lotteries are. One catch though... once you loose the lottery, you will be blocked from going back and trying a 2nd time for the same attraction you lost on. THAT would be the fair way to do this, while keeping the cheapscakes happy. >>I have a hard time with this statement, as does my friend vbdad.<< YOU have.. FRIENDS!?!?! *shock* >> There is no guarantee with the FP system that you're going to get one on a busy day, but the option is open to everyone equally.<< There are so many wrong things with that statement, I can't even begin to fanthom how to write them (much less spelled them correctly!) First up, not every person that goes to the MK is a freaking tourist on steroids, so expecting some people to show up early just because FP is fully available in the morning hours is extremely unfair and ludicrous, not to mention selfish to the core. Secondly... once FPs are gone for a particular ride, there is no way you can concider that fair to ANYONE who arrived at the park early or late, or was blocked off from getting a 2nd FP due to obtaining a previous one, which is yet another reason that forces guests to stand by for the long haul on some rides later in the day..regardless of how early you arrived. >>And I completely disagree that this system somehow becomes more fair if it becomes a pay system.<< It does not become more fair, but justifiable. >>I'd still use it...<< Of course. You are lazy so you won't stand in a long line. So why not pay for the chance to cut to the front of the line?? It's all about "me me me" I see... I can honestly tell you I feel NO LESS second class if I chose not to pay for it and had to wait for you to get in front. In fact, I would laugh and concider you a victim of Disney for having to pay for it... Hahaha!!! >>but as others have said it becomes an even larger separator along economic lines, and thus more unfair in my eyes.<< Danno, you come from the republican state of Texas... Isn't that what you people are conditioned to do when you reach office??? ---> Economic Separation of the masses??? Why should Disney be nice and miss out on all of the dough they can make off people like you who dispise standing in line for more than 10 minutes? I think it's quite fair for Disney to offer FP as a paid option, just like park-hopping is. >>what body of work came up with the fact that the GREAT MAJORITY cannot get one ? With the amount that are churned out every day compared to the number of visitors, how is that factual?<< I suppose the number of visitors in a single park on any given day would alter the percentage of FPs given out versus the actual guest count for the day. You also have to factor in those guests who willingly choose to bypass FP as an option that is simply not worth to use due to their own agendas and schedules while enjoying the park. However, if more than 50% of the guests were to receive FPs, then ...seems to me that would defeat the purpose of the FP system. I don't think it takes a lot of brains to come up with that estimate in relation to FP. So I firmly believe only about 25% of the total guest count gets to use, or better yet, work the system to their advantage. Those who come to the park and do not learn of the system in a timely fashion are simply left out to dry. Do you think that's fair?? YOu have to concider... not everyone who goes to WDW is "commando" about it. Some guests are happy to leave their brains at home and enjoy the parks at leisure... so why penalize them for not being up to speed about FP? There are so many angles to the FP debate...it's simply gross!!! >> I like FP, but I do recall lines moving fast for me in the olden days on the few rides we went on when I firt visited WDW - MK only, on July 15, 1987.<< That is because the line DID move faster before FP. That applies to all of the Disney parks, not just the MK. FP is like a bad virus in your PC: it slows things down conciderably, and can possibly erode your system, which in relation to Disney it means, erodes the level of satisfaction for most guests who have to stand by for the rides. Just stand in the 'Soarin" stand by line during Xmas week and get an earful about their feelings on this issue. >>Whatever happened to the canoes? They still run in Disneyland.<< The canoes still operate at TDL as well. Then again, DL and TDL have always been the two Disney parks where value is offered in regards to their entertainment lineup. No surprises there... at least, not to me.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost <<<what body of work came up with the fact that the GREAT MAJORITY cannot get one ?>>> Sometimes you don't need a "body of work" all you need is your eyesight. Are the Fastpass lines as long as the Standby lines? Of course not, if they were it wouldn't be a very "fast" pass would it? What does common sense tell one about that? Well, it says that the majority are still in the standby line and it is also a known fact that only a specific number of passes are available per day. This is information given out by Disney, not made up. When they are gone, they are gone. Common sense would also dictate that there couldn't be enough to constitute a majority that could use fastpass. It would be rendered useless. I use fastpass myself, when I can get one, because if it don't I spend my whole day standing in line. They are much slower moving than the old lines used to move. Everyone that religiously uses Fastpass get very defensive about their little perk. My feeling goes beyond my own convenience and based on ACTUAL experience in line listening to the anger. I think that Overall it is a huge negative for the majority. That can only spell fewer return trips when people experience anger instead of enjoyment. The next argument will be "good that leaves more room for me" and as soon as a day in Disney extends into hundreds of dollar to support the show with fewer guests we will all see just how good it is. Am I overreacting, for the time being yes, but I am thinking in the long haul not the next few months. The next generation of WDW fans may be a lot smaller than we currently experience. That's what drives my opinion and my dislike for FastPass.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN I was at MGM today and there were NO fastpasses being distributed at severalof the rides and shows...R&RC, Star Tours, Motors Action show, Indy show, just to name the few I saw. I did notice the Lil Mermaid show was offering FP ticketing...for the very next show to begin!! It seemed like the good old days all over again.
Originally Posted By Labuda ""Because that's how long the line was." Ok, that response just made my day. : )" I'll be here all week, thank you.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy >> FP is like a bad virus in your PC: it slows things down considerably, and can possibly erode your system << This is a very good analogy.
Originally Posted By danyoung >Those who come to the park and do not learn of the system in a timely fashion are simply left out to dry. Do you think that's fair??< No less fair than those who show up at 1pm and are shocked by the long lines at the popular attractions. It's EXACTLY the same - they have to learn, either from others or from personal experience, how best to work the system to their family's advantage. >First up, not every person that goes to the MK is a freaking tourist on steroids, so expecting some people to show up early just because FP is fully available in the morning hours is extremely unfair and ludicrous, not to mention selfish to the core.< You make FP seem like something that only a rocket scientist could understand. It's completely simple and accessable. Again, it's exactly the same as the first timer wanting to ride Splash at 3pm, only to find the line is 2 hours long. How many times have you heard people talking about how long the lines ALWAYS are? They just haven't learned the advantage of getting to the park at opening. Or if they have learned, they're not willing to use that advantage. And they get what they deserve. >You are lazy so you won't stand in a long line.< That's a cheap shot and uncalled for. It's in no way lazy - it's simply maximizing my time in the parks. What takes more energy - zipping from attraction to attraction with minimal waits, or spending 90 minutes in a switchback? It ain't lazy - it's efficiency. I stand by my statement - FP is EQUALLY available to all who want to make use of it. A first timer might not figure it out on his first day, but he'll get it down within a few hours.
Originally Posted By Labuda ^^^ Especially if he reads his park map that he's clutching tightly and studying frequently to find where the interesting stuff is.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy >> ou make FP seem like something that only a rocket scientist could understand. << Here we go again.... Listen -- how about a system that gives ONE FP to everyone who comes to the park. Regardless of when they come. What makes it "fair" for someone to get multiples, when others get none? That's not "fair." It's Opportunistic.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy Please tell me why everyone getting ONE and ONLY ONE FP per day is "not fair." Even if some people would not even use the one that they have set aside for them. There are such people....
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy Any unused FP's would not go back into a pool for other FPer's to use. They would simply be unused, which would allow the Standby Line to move better.
Originally Posted By danyoung >Listen -- how about a system that gives ONE FP to everyone who comes to the park. Regardless of when they come.
Originally Posted By danyoung Sorry, computer glitch. So how do you handle it when everyone throughout the morning comes by to get their ONE FP, and then there are no more available in the late afternoon? This is a limited capacity system, and when they're gone, they're gone, no matter how you distribute them. I've always thought the Darkbeer method of running around and cheating the machines that are off the network is abuse of the system. Other than that, the limitations that are built in work fine, IMO.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy >> So how do you handle it when everyone throughout the morning comes by to get their ONE FP, and then there are no more available in the late afternoon? << I don't know. But if this same scenario occurs and there are people in the parks who have had more than one FP already for that day, then that makes it worse.
Originally Posted By danyoung I guess my point was that anyway you slice it there is a chance that ALL people won't be able to take advantage of the system ALL the time. But that doesn't make it unfair. If it's equally available to all on a first come first served basis, and everyone knows (or has access to the information) that the system just might (probably will) sell out before the end of the day, then it's fair. I've used this argument before, but an experienced park stormer (like me & you) will always have the advantage over the first timer. Is this unfair? Nope. We've paid our dues, spent the time and the money to learn the tricks, and now are reaping the benefits of our investment. While I certainly want the first timer to have a great visit, I don't want to limit myself and my knowledge just to give them a leg up. And again, that's not selfish - it's simply me making the best of the experience that I've earned.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>I guess my point was that anyway you slice it there is a chance that ALL people won't be able to take advantage of the system ALL the time. But that doesn't make it unfair.<< You have no point Danno the lazy Texan. You are contradicting yourself right and left. >>an experienced park stormer (like me & you) will always have the advantage over the first timer. Is this unfair? Nope.<< Yes it is unfair because your experience will make you an opportunist and work the system to your advantage. >>If it's equally available to all on a first come first served basis, and everyone knows (or has access to the information) that the system just might (probably will) sell out before the end of the day, then it's fair.<< The pay for FP option would also be available to all on a 1st come 1st serve basis, and everyone knows (or has access to the information) that FP just might (probably will) seel out before the end of the day as well. How is that different or unfair to the current, 1st come 1st serve system and hope the FP won't run out before you get to try obtaining the next one?
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<The pay for FP option would also be available to all on a 1st come 1st serve basis, and everyone knows (or has access to the information) that FP just might (probably will) seel out before the end of the day as well.>> Let's assume for one moment they did make FP a pay-option, and they sell out before you, a local, can buy one. What is your opinion of it then?
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy >> there is a chance that ALL people won't be able to take advantage of the system ALL the time. But that doesn't make it unfair. << It always comes back to deciding "what is fair." Let me ask this. Suppose everyone had to get all their FPs for the day ONLY between 8am and 9am. If you miss that time slot, you would get no FPs for the day. Is that fair? Of course not. But now you're telling me that I DO have to be there between 8am and 4pm to get one. But that's fair. I would argue that it's not. I would argue that you paid your $60 to get in and you had 8 hours more than me to enjoy the parks, including multiple FP's. I came in later for the same $60, and I can't get the one FP that I want.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy >> now are reaping the benefits of our investment << At the expense of the unawares. This is fair? Again, I would suggest it's more opportunistic than "fair."
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy I didn't intend for this thread to segue into FP. For the sake of the FP discussers, please link over to this one -- "A new idea to make FP more fair for everyone" <a href="http://mb.laughingplace.com/MsgBoard-T-83368-P-1.asp" target="_blank">http://mb.laughingplace.com/Ms gBoard-T-83368-P-1.asp</a>
