Originally Posted By johnno52 On the subject of government paid Health care, why is it such a big controversy?
Originally Posted By utahjosh <<On the subject of government paid Health care, why is it such a big controversy?>> 1) Billions of dollars needed to fund the programs. The government is in debt enough already. 2) Many think the government would do a terrible job. That the private sector can do better, and can and should improve.
Originally Posted By jonvn "why is it such a big controversy?" Because we have a lot of people in this country who think USA#1USA#1USA#1 no matter what, and that there is NOTHING EVER WRONG with ANYTHING we do. Regardless of the fact that other nations who have this have better health care than we do, it still is bad! Bad! BAD! It's pure selfishness, really. They have health care, and they are basically too dumb to realize how fragile it is and how quick it can be taken away.
Originally Posted By woody >>What has this to do with the ACLU?<< The question was where are they when private religious practices are prohibited. Of course, you already shown no concern with the matter. If your viewpoint is consistent with the ACLU, then they wouldn't care either.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <<What you don't realize is that the ACLU sides against the state sponsoring religion, and sides with those wishing to practice it privately. You haven't given any examples to the contrary>> <I gave you an example of private prayer on public property. The Supreme Court allows this.> No, you gave an example of a state school forcing people to pray. If you were referring to the university, this group was charged with harassment and hazing, not prayer. <The university acted incorrectly based on this story.> Not if they're correct on the harassment and hazing. >>Read it again, bucko. That quote was from a frat member who didn't like them. The actual charges from the college were harassment and hazing.<< <Yeah, he didn't like them. The charges are trumped up.> How in the world would you know that? You don't, yet blithely state it anyway. <Those religious practices are clearly not harrassment and hazing.> You don't know that. A religious group is capable of doing that. If, say, they harass you to join, you say no thanks, and they don't leave you alone about it. Or harass people who leave the group. As for hazing, fraternities are quite legal on most campuses, but they are no longer allowed most places to do the extreme hazing some of them used to. If this group engaged in this for their initiates (I have no idea if they did, but they could have), they'd be subject to university rules on this as well. That's what they were charged with. You're assuming that all they did was baptize and wash feet, because of that one quote. But the story you linked to was obviously a biased source, and it's quite possible they only included this one quote and then put it in an adjacent paragraph to the actual charges to make them appear connected. They might not be, at all. You'll need to do much better than this and provide far greater evidence, as well as the other side (those supporting the University's decision). And, by the way, the ACLU was not mentioned in this story at all.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <All you're doing is using single anecdotes to claim larger or widespread practices that even your anecdotes don't actually prove.> LOL! Exactly!
Originally Posted By woody <All you're doing is using single anecdotes to claim larger or widespread practices that even your anecdotes don't actually prove.> >>LOL! Exactly!<< This proves you don't see the matter as curtailment of private religious practices. >>state school forcing people to pray<< NOT REALLY. Haven't you read the story? The ACLU might have a point that the school should not be leading the prayer, but it is purely voluntary. Voluntary school prayer.
Originally Posted By jonvn "The question was where are they when private religious practices are prohibited." Actually, that wasn't really the question. But I think the answer here as the difference between liberals and conservatives is that some conservatives can't seem to think very clearly, and rely solely on talk radio for their ideas. When challenged, they can't even understand the conversation because it is not framed around what they have hard on the Rush Limbaugh show.
Originally Posted By woody >>Actually, that wasn't really the question. But I think the answer here as the difference between liberals and conservatives is that some conservatives can't seem to think very clearly, and rely solely on talk radio for their ideas. When challenged, they can't even understand the conversation because it is not framed around what they have hard on the Rush Limbaugh show.<< This is obviously a liberal talking point. I wonder where you gotten the idea any every single conservative idea comes from talk radio. BTW: Rush Limbaugh is not a social conservative.
Originally Posted By woody >>Actually, that wasn't really the question.<< I answered your question. Maybe I didn't answer it exactly as it was posed, but that was my answer. You answered without thinking about it.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I wonder where you gotten the idea any every single conservative idea comes from talk radio." Because all you folks do is parrot them.
Originally Posted By woody >>Because all you folks do is parrot them.<< Knee jerk answer. Do you actually listen to them and take notes? I don't see any point of continuing with bull like this.
Originally Posted By johnno52 Tried to listen to him once from the Detroit stations but found that he was too obnoxious!
Originally Posted By BigJim89 <<"why is it such a big controversy?" Because we have a lot of people in this country who think USA#1USA#1USA#1 no matter what, and that there is NOTHING EVER WRONG with ANYTHING we do. Regardless of the fact that other nations who have this have better health care than we do, it still is bad! Bad! BAD!>> Actually in my case it's the exact opposite. Our government does a teribble job handling the prison health care system and an even worse job with our military health care. Let's also not forget how our Government has paid of their massive debts by raiding Social Security and borrrowing from China. U.S.A. is certainly not number 1 in many respects and I highly doubt that if our governemnt tried to embark on health care we would not be number 1 in that either. The reason I don't want our Government running this is because I fear they will screw it up, making things worse than how they are now; not because the USA can do no wrong.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I'm a conservative, and I don't listen to Hannity or Limbaugh. I find them boring, obnoxious, and unlikable. Not every conservative is a parrot of talk radio. It almost feels like hate speech (ahh!) when all conservatives are called "unable to think clearly" and "unable to understand conversations." I do, however, like listening to Glenn Beck. He's a conservative talk radio guy who's FUN to listen to - and I agree with him a lot - but I'm not his parrot.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <All you're doing is using single anecdotes to claim larger or widespread practices that even your anecdotes don't actually prove.> >>LOL! Exactly!<< <This proves you don't see the matter as curtailment of private religious practices.> Because the examples you have given are not about the curtailment of private religious practices. That you do not understand this is evident, but it doesn't change the fact. >>state school forcing people to pray<< <NOT REALLY. Haven't you read the story? The ACLU might have a point that the school should not be leading the prayer, but it is purely voluntary. Voluntary school prayer.> What was found was undue pressure to participate. Truly voluntary prayer would not be a group prayer. God doesn't need to hear from everybody at once; privately in your room is fine. When the school leads it, there is pressure to conform.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <When the school leads it, there is pressure to conform.> Wow. How offensive it must be to have to listen to a 45 second talk addressed to God.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>How offensive it must be to have to listen to a 45 second talk addressed to God.<< Would you be cool with bowing towards Mecca? Only takes a few seconds.
Originally Posted By ecdc It has nothing to do with being offended, Josh. Tell you what, people can say prayers in school if I can say my kind of prayer afterward. Deal?
