Originally Posted By plpeters70 "Water Vapor is 95% of all the greenhouse gasses. There is zero proof CO2 causes climate change. In fact, the proof is the opposite." You're ignoring the point. Humans are not increasing the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere directly - we are increasing the amount of CO2, methane and other greenhouse gases. As these gases cause the earth to warm, more water vapor will stay in the atmosphere - thus causing even further warming. And I have yet to see ANY proof that shows that CO2 does not cause warming.
Originally Posted By Wyatt66 Give me total 100% proof that CO2 has caused the planet to warm. Because thus far there is no proof. Just models that have turned out to be totally inaccurate. Can you tell me how much CO2 humans put into the air vs. mother nature? Finally, do you think reducing CO2 emissions is going to change the earth temp? What is the optimum temp we should be shooting for? Wyatt
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Originally Posted By plpeters70 I'm not sure why I'm bothering, but for anyone interested... "Give me total 100% proof that CO2 has caused the planet to warm." Not 100%, but this is based on actual observations over the past 100 years, not on computer models. From Wikipedia: <<The average global air temperature near the Earth's surface increased 0.74 ± 0.18 °C (1.33 ± 0.32 °F) during the hundred years ending in 2005.[1] The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) concludes "most of the observed increase in globally averaged temperatures since the mid-twentieth century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic (man-made) greenhouse gas concentrations"[1] via the greenhouse effect. Natural phenomena such as solar variation combined with volcanoes probably had a small warming effect from pre-industrial times to 1950 and a small cooling effect from 1950 onward.>> "Can you tell me how much CO2 humans put into the air vs. mother nature?" From wikipedia: <<Up to 40% of the gas emitted by some volcanoes during subaerial volcanic eruptions is carbon dioxide.[19] According to the best estimates, volcanoes release about 130-230 million tonnes (145-255 million tons) of CO2 into the atmosphere each year. Carbon dioxide is also produced by hot springs such as those at the Bossoleto site near Rapolano Terme in Tuscany, Italy.>> Now here's the important part: <<However, emissions of CO2 by human activities are currently more than 130 times greater than the quantity emitted by volcanoes, amounting to about 27 billion tonnes per year (30 billion tons).>> "Finally, do you think reducing CO2 emissions is going to change the earth temp? What is the optimum temp we should be shooting for?" Scientists believe that it will. As for the optimum temperature, I don't know. But I would guess that the optimum temperature for us humans would be about what it was for the past 10,000 years.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 plpeters70, you're arguing with Beau, someone with lots of definitive statements, but no facts.
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Originally Posted By plpeters70 "This is 100% flat out false. Where you got this, they are misleading you. Big time." Please provide a link to information showing this to be false. Your quotes don't provide any real information.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "Are you sure you want to give up your car, your air conditioner" You do realize that all of those things cause pollution of all sorts - not just CO2. So YES, I do think we need to change our way of life. It's just not sustainable with the current technologies in use, is polluting the planet, and will do so even more so as Third World countries begin to use the same amount of resources as the First World. Finding a more sustainable lifestyle will benefit all humans and animals on the planet.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Please provide a link to information showing this to be false. Your quotes don't provide any real information.> As usual.
Originally Posted By Wyatt66 <a href="http://nov55.com/gbwm.html" target="_blank">http://nov55.com/gbwm.html</a> This link shows how LITTLE humans contribute to the total CO2 in the world. Our lifesytles are fine, but if the global warming crowd gets their way it won't stay that way. Your trips to DL will become almost impossible to afford. All for what? Nothing.
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Originally Posted By Mrs ElderP The talk about global warming is somewhat besides the point. The point is that although we in the US can weather food prices going up 15%-20% a huge segment of the world's population can not. Farmers do deserve to make a living, so do the people who pick the grapes and the tomatoes and strawberries, ect. (Though right now the biggest problems are with the staple crops that are generally harvested by machine.) What's the solution? I don't know. I do know that less meat consumption is part of it. I also know that local farmers who aren't priced out of their local markets are part of it too. (That could have wider, positive consequeces for economic stability the world over, as an added bonus.) I also think that "world peace", the kind that allows 3rd world farmers to farm and not see their crops destoryed by roving militias is a part of it too. I seriously doubt the viablity of using food as fuel. I'm open for other suggestions. I think, that at best, any long term solution for fair energy use and equal distribution of food is going to have lots of parts and we are going to lurch towards it little by little.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf <<No it is not (show me ANYTHING that says it is). I will agree that it is pretty much a wash... that it doesn't help the environment but doesn't harm it any more than oil production does.>> Um, read this. <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17500316/" target="_blank">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17500316/</a>
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf and this... <a href="http://www.ecoearth.info/shared/reader/welcome.aspx?linkid=91615" target="_blank">http://www.ecoearth.info/share...id=91615</a> If you're for ruining the planet, support the production of ethanol.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Totally different situation. Brazil is clearing rainforest to plant sugar cane for ethanol. In the U.S. farmers are growing on acreage previously planted. Apples and Oranges. Next?
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "This link shows how LITTLE humans contribute to the total CO2 in the world." I'm sorry, but I just have to point this out. This is from the website you posted: <<Four decades ago, I studied yeast physiology at the University of Arizona later publishing my masters research on a yeast which adapted to growth on trees. I then studied for a year at the University of California at Davis. But mental pain caused by distracting environments drove me out. I refer to myself as a scientist, even though I have a masters degree and not a Ph.D. degree, because I do what scientists are supposed to be doing, which includes some critical things which scientists seldom do but should, like exploratory research and opposing corruption in science with basic criticism; and I published my masters research in a science journal, cited below. I have as much education from three universities as any Ph.Ds.>> This guy studies YEAST -- what exactly makes him an expert on climate change? You'll have to do better than that if you want to be taken seriously.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 "The talk about global warming is somewhat besides the point." Not entirely - global warming and climate change are certainly going to cause problems for farmers. Not to mention that the cost of oil is driving up the costs of farming and transporting food. That's not all of the problem, but it certainly is part of it. I don't know what the solutions are, but sometimes you need to identify the cause before you can find a solution.
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