Originally Posted By gadzuux Watching the Egypt meltdown, I'm noticing that this pitched battle is being waged mostly by throwing rocks and waving sticks. Three days of "revolution" and you can count the casualties on one hand. Can you imagine what the same thing would look like in this country? There'd be thousands dead by this point. The difference? Guns.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<I disagree. The actions of some who use guns for evil are what we should be ashamed of. >> But to what "good" purpose can you put a gun besides hunting for food? And can you really claim that having a weapon like a gun to hunt with has been a good thing for humanity, in the long run?
Originally Posted By utahjosh <But to what "good" purpose can you put a gun besides hunting for food?> Keeping the bad guys away. Fun. That's about it.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Keeping the bad guys away.<< This is a fantasy of gun owners who watch too much TV and think Jack Bauer is a real character. No one wants to break in your house, gun owners. No one is going to hurt your family. Crime has gone down in this country since the 1950s. But still gun owners fantasize about being someplace when an Arab rips out an AK-47 and starts blasting away, so they calmly pull out their 9-MM and plug him several times, saving the day. It must happen all the time, right? Actually, it NEVER happens and the number of people killed or injured in their homes from gun accidents far exceeds the number of people who "protect" themselves.
Originally Posted By ecdc Guns are the sign of an archaic culture made up of people desperate to feel powerful and important.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<Fun.>> Fun? With a weapon? I guess I just don't understand people sometimes.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Fun? With a weapon? I guess I just don't understand people sometimes.<< Who would Jesus plug?
Originally Posted By utahjosh <>>Keeping the bad guys away.<< This is a fantasy of gun owners who watch too much TV and think Jack Bauer is a real character.> I was thinking more about General Washington's use of them. Or my cousin who's over in Afghanistan.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Crime has gone down in this country since the 1950s.> But...but...there are more guns around!
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Fun? With a weapon? I guess I just don't understand people sometimes.> Target shooting is really fun.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I was thinking more about General Washington's use of them. Or my cousin who's over in Afghanistan.<< Dividing complex issues of war into "good guys" and "bad guys" is both dangerous and ignorant. That's Glenn Beck's fantasy revisions of history, not reality.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>But...but...there are more guns around!<< In spite of guns, yes crime has gone down. There's zero evidence that guns have caused the decrease in our crime rate. What's actually caused it more equality and better government support of the poor and minorities.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Dividing complex issues of war into "good guys" and "bad guys" is both dangerous and ignorant.> Fine, my "bad guys" comment was overly simplistic. Thanks for reading into it and calling me dangerous and ignorant <snark> But to my friends in uniform on the other side of the world, having a gun at their side is sure useful, with bad guys - um - I mean - mislead individuals who seek to use guns for evil.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<Target shooting is really fun.>> To each his own, but I certainly would be willing to give up that kind of "fun" if it meant that less people had to die at the hands of careless gun owners.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>But to my friends in uniform on the other side of the world, having a gun at their side is sure useful, with bad guys - um - I mean - mislead individuals who seek to use guns for evil.<< No one is arguing we send soldiers off to war without guns. It's a necessary evil, not an "amazing tool." You're glorifying an object that's sole purpose is to kill. You are, in effect, glorifying war and romanticizing it - particularly the Revolutionary War. Ask the participants how they felt about these things. Even WWII, arguably the most just war - try asking a veteran about how great it was.
Originally Posted By ecdc And what's more, you make it sound like guns are this divine gift from Jesus himself. Remember, the other side had guns too. They used them to kill American soldiers. Your argument that they're an "amazing tool" might hold more water if we were the only ones that had it. But it's basically a wash - the other guys could say it was an "amazing tool" as well.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<It's a necessary evil, not an "amazing tool." You're glorifying an object that's sole purpose is to kill.>> Thank you - that's what I was trying to say!
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<Your argument that they're an "amazing tool" might hold more water if we were the only ones that had it.>> Kind of like when Europeans first conquered the Americas and Africa. They were the only ones with the guns, but I very much doubt anyone would call the results of those conquests "amazing" or "good".
Originally Posted By ecdc Forgive my rant on this, but here's what irks me about this glorification of guns. Conservatives used to be pragmatists. Even if I didn't agree with them, at least their reasoning was pragmatic. Government should be small because local government can do better, social programs should be minimal because they can cost too much and be too inefficient, etc. Now conservatives embrace necessary evils and relabel them as positive goods. It creeps me out because it's what the South did prior to the Civil War. before the 1840s, the South called slavery a necessary evil and understood that it would have to be phased out. But then, because of regional pride and resentment towards the North's shift to manufacturing and accelerated growth, they morphed the necessary evil of slavery into a positive social good. Whole books were written arguing that slavery was the highest order of life and that it was beneficial for both blacks and whites. It's not all that different from what we see from conservatives today - an embrace and glorification of things that have no business being glorified. Drill baby drill Love of guns Climate change denial Opposition to the START treaty Promotion of big business at all costs Opposition to healthcare reform Demonization of Muslims and Mexicans We NEED conservative pragmatism as part of our national discourse. Instead they're a joke, a parody of themselves that would make Saturday Night Live blush.
Originally Posted By utahjosh It seems more reactionary. On both sides, and most sides DON'T go to the extreme. Drill baby drill = Yes, until new technology can adequatly replace it. Love of guns = When they are threated to be taken away. Climate change denial = Not denial usually, but challenged, yes. Opposition to healthcare reform = That's not true. Opposed to the recent bill. Reform is needed. Demonization of Muslims and Mexicans = That's just unfortunate, and I don't see it a lot.
