Originally Posted By jasmine7 Well said in number 19, 2oony. That's what turns me off from most religion these days, all the grandiosity and falderal.
Originally Posted By cape cod joe 200n--I'm akin to you as this religious doctrinal stuff is extremely beyond me. I just try to do unto others, be kind, loving, and respectful, rather than the esoteric religious theater that I was brought up with in the Catholic Church. I see all these Church goers who spew venom and hate at people's good fortune, mostly notably, my own family>brother and sister. I'm the type that if a person I know wins the lottery tonight (256 mill) instead of me, I'm happy for them. That to me is living a Christian life rather than paying lip service to Jesus and not being a loving person.
Originally Posted By cmpaley Well, truth to tell, 2oony...any organization that's 2000 years old will tend to get a lot of additional trappings... Doesn't deter from the truth of the Church's message...and the pomp and ceremony is part of what drew me TO the church.
Originally Posted By cmpaley I don't think Christ was opposed to all the "grandiosity and felderal" (after all, He attended synagogue and Tepmle regularly) but to the hypocricy of the Pharisees (whom He railed against constantly). You'll notice that He never condemned the Temple and the ceremonies of the Temple but those who defiled it. He gave us ONE new commandment, which CCJ brings up: We are to love one another.
Originally Posted By cape cod joe Re: lottery---I do hope I win though, as I want to go on all the talks and make it be known that I'm giving away 50% to charity, not to be a big shot, but to encourage others to do likewise.
Originally Posted By cmpaley One more thing...I find the ceremonial aspects of the Mass to be most comforting. In a world that is so full of confusion and strife, it's comforting to be able to go to church and know what to expect...and know that God is there and that your worship on earth is united to the worship that is going on in heaven. I don't understand how anyone who understands that would find it stifling or boring or a problem....but that's just me.
Originally Posted By cape cod joe CM---God created us all different. Gays, Blacks, etc. There were NO mistakes by God, just mistakes by people in their free will choices.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>the pomp and ceremony is part of what drew me TO the church<< I realize that. And if it makes you happy, that's cool. More and more for me, it gets in the way. Doesn't so much detract from the message, just sort of distracts.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>One more thing...I find the ceremonial aspects of the Mass to be most comforting.<< You're not alone in that. Lots of people do. It's just that I was exposed to a way of going through all those ceremonies that felt fresh and alive to me, only to have the church eventually moved to a larger, more elaborate, more traditional setting. Brought more "into line" so to speak. And the difference in my young mind was stark in every way. My daughter attended a religious retreat weekend a few months ago. We attended mass at the conclusion of it -- and once again, it was lively and loud and energetic, in the simple forest setting. Just beautiful. Maybe I need to find an Ewok mass. ; )
Originally Posted By TomSawyer >>Doesn't your statement, Tom, deny Article 28, though?<< The Articles of Faith don't carry the same weight as a catechism, cmpaley. They are a set of articles written generally to describe the position of the Anglican church, and they haven't been updated since the early 19th century. Article 34 says that the traditions and ceremonies can be celebrated in any way so long as those ceremonies don't go against God's Word. Since belief in transsubstantiation doesn't affect the communal celebration of the Eucharist, and since there is a mystery surrounding the Eucharist, it's perfectly reasonable for individual or even individual congregations or dioceses or national churches to disagree on the nature of the Eucharist. Just so long as we all come to the table and celebrate community and remember Christ's sacrifice. >>Jesus, being God, instituted the Sacrament of the Eucharist, declaring that the bread is His body and the wine is His blood<< Ever hear of a metaphor? Christ told us that his body was the church itself, the community of believers. We are his body. There's no reason in my opinion for the bread and wine to become the body and blood of Christ since the body of Christ is already present.
Originally Posted By cape cod joe Tom--Are you a Minister? Where did you obtain all this knowledge> incredible! I want you in the foxhole with me on judgement day. I know as my wife tells me when I've asked her lately to be my spirtitual guide, "You have to go it alone"
Originally Posted By TomSawyer I love the tradition of the liturgy, and the fact that the words are essentially the same today as they were almost 2000 years ago. Augustine would recognize the mass that he celebrated in Canterbury if he were to walk into Canterbury Cathedral today. I also love church music performed by a good choir and accompanied by a majestic church organ, and the high church service at the Cathedral is beautiful. I've also been to the very simple mid-week services and they are just as powerful. The most intimate service, Compline, is very simple but deeply moving.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer I'm not a minister, ccj - but thanks for the compliment. I'm just blessed with an amazing group of friends at my church who love to talk about issues like this. I've learned a lot from them.
Originally Posted By cape cod joe My I.Q. is up there even if people get angry, but I have no idea what post 33 means. Like Ian Malcolm in Jurassic Park telling Laura Dern---Whhooosssshhh--right over my bald head> and you say this stuff so effortlessly as if you HAVE to have a script in front of you but you OBVIOUSLY don't. What IS your occ? may I ask? Ethereal rocket scientist?
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>CM---God created us all different. Gays, Blacks, etc. There were NO mistakes by God, just mistakes by people in their free will choices.<< Where did this come from? Every human person is made in the image of God, thus possesses an inherent dignity and an unalienable right to life...something that neither political party respects.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>>>Jesus, being God, instituted the Sacrament of the Eucharist, declaring that the bread is His body and the wine is His blood<< Ever hear of a metaphor?<< Sure, but the Institution Narrative isn't metaphor. >>Christ told us that his body was the church itself, the community of believers.<< Where? >>We are his body.<< This is true. But having read the Gospels all the way through, I've not read where He said this. I read Him talking about an authoritative Church and establishing such a Church with St. Peter as the head. >>There's no reason in my opinion for the bread and wine to become the body and blood of Christ since the body of Christ is already present.<< What about John 6? On more than one occasion, He says that HE is the bread of life and that His flesh is true food and His blood is true drink and that unless we eat His flesh and drink His blood, there is no life in us. People left Him because they understood this as literal. If it wasn't literal, why didn't He call them back saying, "you don't understand, it's a metaphor! I didn't REALLY mean you have to REALLY eat my flesh and drink my blood. It's play-pretend...just like the Last Supper would be...play-pretend." Sorry. That doesn't cut it.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>People left Him because they understood this as literal.<< I would say they misunderstood. Couldn't it be that the eating and drinking, in itself, was a metaphor? Sort of like drinking in a beautiful scene of a lake. That doesn't mean you have to actuallly drink the physical water -- you take it into your soul. >>why didn't He call them back saying, "you don't understand, it's a metaphor!<< Maybe He didn't feel like explaining something that should be rather simple to understand? Maybe by that point He was weary of people overcomplicating a clear message, knowing that it would be one more thing He would suffer on the cross for? You call it play-pretend, but if He wanted them to literally eat his flesh and drink His blood, why would He have disguised it in the form of bread and wine?
Originally Posted By cape cod joe Come on CM? EVERYONE knows God made us all different and unique. Joel says it every week on tv. Of course we all have things inherently the same, but why the argument about such a basich truth? No 2 people have the same dna and on and on. What's the deal here? You just want to argue? No two human beings are the same? I'd like to see you prove that wrong? And why bring in political parties? I'm an independent for the zillionth time. God is not political.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer Cmpaley, far wiser men and women than us have studied the Eucharist and it remains a mystery. It is important to you and others to believe that you are consuming the actual flesh and blood of Christ, while others believe that the act of remembrance and community itself is the sacrament and that God is spiritually but not corporeally present in the wine and bread. But for me the bottom line is that it isn't the Eucharist that makes us Christian, and it isn't what we believe about the Eucharist that makes some of us closer to God and some of us further away.
