Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Indeed there are. Mikey was the only child in one when he was a baby. But I tipped the maitre D (it was our wedding anniversary, and we had been through a very difficult time at home) and we were in. To be honest, Jess is at the stage where I wouldn't take her right now. But to be told I cannot really annoys me. Because when she is 6 or 8, like her uncles, and like me, it is something we would enjoy as a family. While the other restaurants are ok (or in Cal Grill's case great), none of them are V&A's. I understand some people have an issue with kids, but there are some of us who want to be with them and enjoy the finer things. That's why I think a watershed approach is a far better way to go!
Originally Posted By Mr X I guess I miss the whole "my kids MUST be able to do x.y.z"...I do think that there are some places where grown-ups should be able to enjoy their time sans little ones (and, beyond that, I really don't, I REALLY don't think the kids...all said and done, enjoy it all that much.....LOTS of pressure, and boring, and lame, and all that...as a kid I think it would have SUCKED to be subjected to long, boring, lame diners at such places). Just my 2 cents, of course..
Originally Posted By Mr X Should kids also be allowed to hang out at bars? How 'bout marijuana bars in Holland...that okay too?
Originally Posted By danyoung >This is the 178th message in this topic ... and I still don't see that it is such an issue ... V&A should have ALWAYS been no youngsters allowed.< I think our good friend vbdad was the one who had a huge problem with it, which has kinda kept things going here. I think he finally felt outnumbered and just left the thread, which is too bad - I always love a good, protracted battle!
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>as a kid I think it would have SUCKED to be subjected to long, boring, lame diners at such places).<< Funny, I enjoyed them as a kid and I enjoyed them now. It is why I was able to have dinner with key international politicans and business people at 22 while some people 10 years my senior were nervous of such events. Because my parents taught me how to behave, it gave me a fantastic opportunity and kick start to do things others only dream of.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>Should kids also be allowed to hang out at bars?<<< Here in Europe they do. In fact I find the liberal approach to life, particularly in the Med to be refreshing, especially compared to the parochial views of the WASP english speaking world.
Originally Posted By danyoung dave, I can certainly see why your upbringing would be a benefit to you. But there's a huge difference between your experience as a child and what you see in Disney's nicer restaurants - tired, cranky children running wild while their tired, cranky parents either pay them no attention or scream at them to sit down and shut up. It's no wonder to me that V&A's would want to curb this activity.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I hear you Dan, and indeed it horrified me what I witnessed at WDW. I understand the walmarting white trash moniker banded about. However, I always felt that by not offering a children's menu, it was a perfect way of striking a balance. As I said, Jess is in her terrible 2's, so I would not wish to ruin ours or other guests' experiences, so we would not take her and pay full price. But when the children were in the mood, I would be willing to pay for a special occassion and go. Hence why a watershed would be a good balance. Now as I have already stated, if Disney upped the quality again at the others, I am not fussed. But everywhere we ate last time seemed so average except Le Cellier. Cal Grill and V&A's are special. I just wish that instead of shlepping chicken fingers and Mac N Cheese for kids, and the same Chicken, Fish, Beef, Veggie 6 choice menu in every restaurant, they started offering better quality again. I was shocked at the quality tumble between 2000 and 2006. But that is for another debate. So I suppose my main annoyance is at the lack of quality offerings for the whole family. Some of us don't just want Rubber Heads and junk. I suppose I have been spoilt at DLP where there are a number of quality restaurants with live pianist, extensive menu and wine list, where our kids are welcome. Between the security pains and the quality drops, I know I am more likely to now spend Euros than to bring dollars to florida. The jury is still out on our California experience (where it's nice to know we could take the kids to the Napa Rose if we wished - we won't because Jess is 2 - but when she is 5, we might - unless California starts this policy too!).
Originally Posted By nbodyhome >> >>>as a kid I think it would have SUCKED to be subjected to long, boring, lame diners at such places).<< Funny, I enjoyed them as a kid and I enjoyed them now. It is why I was able to have dinner with key international politicans and business people at 22 while some people 10 years my senior were nervous of such events. << I was brought to fancy meals with politicians (or others) occasionally as a kid. It was SOOOO boring to me. The family I lived with (my parents were divorced) is very casual. But when I visited my family in DC, then I always needed a dress for dining out. I was a tomboy and didn't like dresses, nor did I enjoy the whole sitting at the table thing for a couple of hours with adults. I still tend more to be casual - I do like to dress up and go out occasionally, but I wouldn't subject most kids to it. I am sure some enjoy it - but the average kid I bet would prefer to be at the Neverland Club, playing video games. That is what I would have wanted!
Originally Posted By dshyates "I, personally, would not be happy to see any young kids in a classy restaurant that I booked and paid top dollar for". Odd, so you would complain about My well dressed and polite 7 and 11 year old daughters who were behaving like well, quiet and respectful children at a resort hotel theme restaurant at WDW. Who's the spoiled one here? This attitude is more likely the reason for the ban than actual unruly children. Spoiled whiny adults. Why on earth would anyone have a problem with anyone else who is sitting quietly eating. Seriously, WDW may not be the place for you if you don't want to see kids running around a "top dollar" joint. We go the The Greenbrier 5-6 times a year and have never had a problem. And it is a little more upscale than V&As. <a href="http://www.greenbrier.com/site/default.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.greenbrier.com/site /default.aspx</a> I, know, there are a lot of you guys rolling your eyes thinking, "Sure your snot nosed brats are angels, aren't they all according to their parents?". No they are not. And it always is the parents fault. I simply won't put up with fit throwing, or even horseplay at inappropriate times. My youngest is 7 and I haven't had to even mention "restaurant voices" since she was like 3. So after 4 years of many fine dining experiences I know that they would be well turned out and respectful dinner guests. As I said before, I think an age limit is fine, but I would set it at four. Loud infants aren't misbehaving, but still are loud. Now, what can we do about the boorish camo ball cap wearing Bubba drinking Merlot from the bottle?
Originally Posted By dshyates Those kinda meals can be terribly boring If you stick the kids in the corner and tell them to "shut up and Eat". You deserve for your kids to meltdown if you treat them like that. They can be quite stimulating and educational if you engage the kids, talk to them, expain to them what they are eating, how to behave, where to put your elbows, where does the napkin go?, What's this fork for? How's the Escargot? (my 7 year old LOVES Escargot, mmmm garlic butter.)
Originally Posted By Mr X **Funny, I enjoyed them as a kid and I enjoyed them now. It is why I was able to have dinner with key international politicans and business people at 22 while some people 10 years my senior were nervous of such events.** Well, you and I are different in that respect then. As a kid, I'd have been annoyed and bored to death hanging with a bunch of lame, boring polititians and businessmen. Funny as it seems, at the ripe old age of 36 the prospect still makes me yawn. But hey, whatever melts your butter. **Because my parents taught me how to behave, it gave me a fantastic opportunity and kick start to do things others only dream of.** Again, if shmoozing and going to boring events are the stuff of your dreams...have at it! Personally...yawn. And I think kids, in general, probably feel the same way. ***>>>Should kids also be allowed to hang out at bars?<<< Here in Europe they do. In fact I find the liberal approach to life, particularly in the Med to be refreshing, especially compared to the parochial views of the WASP english speaking world.*** I don't think kids should hang out in bars. ***BTw X, they are Brown cafes in Holland.*** I thought they were "coffee shops". In any case, I don't want my daughter hanging out there. ***I suppose I have been spoilt at DLP where there are a number of quality restaurants with live pianist, extensive menu and wine list, where our kids are welcome.*** Well, yet again...if there's some place where the wine list is a highlight, I doubt kids would really want to be there. Nor would I want them there. Unless you advocate giving wine to kids? (if not...then your argument loses a little something...since wine is very important to the experience as you allude to no?) So...if the kids can't partake in all that's "good" about the experience...maybe it's because it's more of an "adult" experience? Perhaps?
Originally Posted By dshyates Here's how Disney could have avoided the whole thing. Not change an existing and popular family restaurant. But build a new one attached it to a small 250 room Deluxe boutique resort/spa where the whole place is kids free. Then the news wouldn't have read "Disney bans kids..." It would read "Disney to build brat free oasis".
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo dshyates, I hear you. This is why often our meals at home last an hour. We converse with one another. It's funny, my parents and brothers went to the States last month. Now jonvn would immediately judge my brothers (age 11, 15, and 16) because the two oldest have long hair and earings (as well as they like to wear Heavy Metal gear - but when eating out, the hair goes into Ponytails, the ring becomes a stud, and they will don a suit or sports jacket as the situation dictates. Although they like video games and music like most kids, they do not grunt. They converse, they debate, and they are more articulate than even a number of adults I know. Now some might say, well they are teens. Well guess what? While other kids probably eat dinner on their laps in front of the TV, or play gameboy while awaiting the entree, ours were taught the art in interpersonal communication. One that seems to be dying. And they were taught to behave this way from year 1. I went on my first cruise at age 2. I went to the ballet and symphony hall regularly as a child. Also saw Pink Floyd when I was 5. My kids are growing up in a similar way with Mikey having been to 9 countries now (age 4), several museums, galleries, amusement parks, restaurants etc. Sometimes the kids forget themselves, and sometimes we pick our battles. But I am totally with dshyates on this one, it is down to the parenting in most cases - or sometimes food allergies (god it took a long time to work out that asperitime was one of the main causes of Mikey becoming an animal). But we're a wierd family. I went 10 years without a pair of sneakers or tennis shoes and only broke down and bought some last year because a pair of my casuals died while in DLP.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>Unless you advocate giving wine to kids? <<< Watered down Zinfandel or Beaujolais are their favs ;-p I would not go to a Brown Cafe, so therefore that is a non issue. True, if a Rain Forest Cafe did market dining 3 course meals, then my kids would love it. Sadly they don't. That's why we like a choice.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>As a kid, I'd have been annoyed and bored to death hanging with a bunch of lame, boring polititians and businessmen. Funny as it seems, at the ripe old age of 36 the prospect still makes me yawn.<<< I feel the same way about most sport events, or partying hard - yawn. Different strokes. I have had to go to Wimbledon, Soccer Games and the like for business, and my god it's boring stuff. Same for athletics, american Football and many others. I quite like Baseball though, once every 5 - 10 years.
Originally Posted By Mr X **Odd, so you would complain about My well dressed and polite 7 and 11 year old daughters who were behaving like well, quiet and respectful children at a resort hotel theme restaurant at WDW.** I wouldn't complain so long as they actually were as quiet as all the other diners. However, I would get worried if I saw kids, frankly, since the odds are against things going well imho. We're talking top-dollar stuff here, and when you pay a lot you expect to have a flawless evening. **Who's the spoiled one here?** If by "spoiled" you mean "someone paying a lot of money who expects to have a very nice atmosphere to go along with the meal and doesn't care to be disturbed by young kids", then, yes. Honestly though, even well behaved kids in a boring situation like that freak me out. Why? Well, honestly because I feel bad for the kids. **This attitude is more likely the reason for the ban than actual unruly children.** No, I don't think so. They've been "open to kids" for decades. I highly doubt the received hordes of complains "just because". Again, YOUR kids might be fine...but MOST kids wouldn't be. Most would be bored. Fussy. Unhappy with the unusual stuff offered. And, well...kids. *Spoiled whiny adults.* Maybe so. **Why on earth would anyone have a problem with anyone else who is sitting quietly eating.** Again, because even if the kids are being quiet it's still weird and uncomfortable to see them subjected to such a boring, un-kid friendly place. I really feel bad for those kids. **Seriously, WDW may not be the place for you if you don't want to see kids running around a "top dollar" joint.** Well, since I've never actually dined at V&A it's not so much of an issue, but DisneyWorld or not it's a 5 star, VERY expensive place and there really shouldn't be kids "running around" (your words, not mine) at all. ***And it always is the parents fault.*** I disagree. Just as there are plenty of jerk adults, so aren't there plenty of jerk kids. In fact, more. Because some kids go through something called "stages" where they act less cool than during most of the rest of their lives. Also, I know some AWESOME parents who've had to deal with some MONSTER kids. They try, and try, and try some more...and still the kids are monsters. Kids have personalities too. They are hardly under the "control" of the parents sometimes. I think you know this. **Now, what can we do about the boorish camo ball cap wearing Bubba drinking Merlot from the bottle?** Kick em out. But seriously though, how many of THOSE types do you really see dining at victoria and alberts? Maybe an occasional mega-millions winner here and there...but for the most part, gimme a break. The white-trash types you're referring to do NOT, typically, make reservations for 5-star dining. And I think you know this too. You're making an argument for the sake of making an argument (probably learned it from some politician at some boring event when you were a kid ).
Originally Posted By Mr X **if you engage the kids, talk to them, expain to them what they are eating, how to behave, where to put your elbows, where does the napkin go?, What's this fork for? How's the Escargot?** Good lord in Heaven, this sounds like a kiddie version of hell!
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo But just as nothing I will say here will change anyone's mind. I have tried to demonstrate an understanding. But I am tired of wasting my time. and on continues a generation who aspire to be discovered on American Idol, watch everything Britany, Paris et al do, waste their existance on reality tv, lose etiquette etc. I would rather go and live life. Funny, I argue with jonvn in another section about standards, and yet on this thread I am perhaps coming off as more like him. Maybe I should just come off period.
