Originally Posted By utahjosh <Of course, now that alcohol is legal, the government is condoning it and encouraging alcoholism.> Tell me, mele, why are benefits given to married couples? I don't see any incentives from the govt to drink.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>I don't see any incentives from the govt to drink.<< Where you been the last 8 years?
Originally Posted By gottaluvdavillains <<Tell me, mele, why are benefits given to married couples?>>> What does it matter to you Josh - it had nothing to do with the benifits... Remember it was all about the man/woman thing... Josh if a couple wants to be married they should - the government is not encouraging a couple to be married gay or straight. If the benifits were so great there wouldn't be so many people who never marry by choice. The benifit that the Gay Community wanted was to have their marriages recognized throughout the US. They want survivor benifits, they wanted the same things you wanted when you married Josh. They wanted their relationships validated by the world. Many Gay couples that were married recently are involved in their churches and want that same feeling of not living in sin that you have Josh.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster utahjosh: "I do think gay sex is gross." Of course you do. Of course you do. "Most gays probably think hetro sex is gross." Nope. "But I don't want to hide gay people." No, because that would mean we're still around. You'd rather just have us not be around at all. "I also don't want the government to encourage homosexual activity." So how does one "encourage homosexual activity"? You could such as easily suggest that the government encourages black activity or handicapped activity or Native American activity. You still don't understand what homosexuality is. Until you do, you do not accept us and you do not consider us your equals. By saying that you would encourage us to pursue civil rights you are stopping short of saying we should pursue EQUAL rights. Keep your religious beliefs out of my laws. Your actions (and especially the actions of your church)have harmed my life in a real way. I no longer have the right to pursue the life of happiness that you have. And you are proud of that fact.
Originally Posted By mele Gee, I thought that the government believed that societies were stronger when they had strong family units. The thing that you don't want to admit is that ALL family units are equally as important for society, not just YOUR family or families just like yours. By keeping some families from being "legit" you are damaging a significant part of the population. Again, yet another example of you creating the exact same situation that you are so afraid of and are working to stop. Man, at some point, it's humorous. What you resists, persists. Well done. LOL
Originally Posted By Dabob2 < I also don't want the government to encourage homosexual activity.> <Oh really? Then why does the government give benefits to married couples int he first place?> Josh, this has been explained to you before. But here goes. Listen up this time, will you? State-licensed marriage encourages stable relationships. It does not encourage heterosexuality, or heterosexual activity. Heterosexuals will BE heterosexual, with or without government encouragement. They will have sex with each other, with or without government encouragement. Every straight person reading this knows this to be true. The only thing marriage encourages is stable relationships. Well, Josh, we form relationships too. Shouldn't stability be encouraged for us? Or are we not good enough? Is that plain enough for you?
Originally Posted By DAR Don't worry eventually there will be equality to all, it's just going to take some time.
Originally Posted By FaMulan So true, DAR. This is the next battlefield in the Civil Rights struggle.
Originally Posted By DAR And I joke but I'd like to see a "domestic call" to a trailer park on COPS and there's a slack jawed toothless yokels of the same sex having an argument.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <The only thing marriage encourages is stable relationships.> And families and children. <Well, Josh, we form relationships too. Shouldn't stability be encouraged for us? Or are we not good enough?> You won't like my answer. I don't believe homosexual relationships will improve our society the way the traditional family does.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt “The church has made a statement regarding Prop 8. It's not full of lies or hate, I promise.” From the link provided by Josh: >Allegations of bigotry or persecution made against the Church were and are simply wrong. The Church’s opposition to same-sex marriage neither constitutes nor condones any kind of hostility toward gays and lesbians. Even more, the Church does not object to rights for same-sex couples regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights, so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the traditional family or the constitutional rights of churches. < To begin the first line is mostly a lie, and the entire excerpt is the perfect example of how the LDS Church is brainwashing its members and the public into believing that their actions do not intend to hurt, harm, or infringe on the fundamental rights of California citizens. Yet, in their overzealousness on this issue they have aggressively supported legislation that will ELIMINATE established civil rights granted by the highest court in the state. How this group can sit there and act so pious while they deliberately butt their noses in other people’s personal lives and simultaneously destroy families is sickening.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>handicapped<<< Excuse me if we are all going to try to label and judge and be pius today, this is also offensive. The etimology of handicap comes from cap in hand, when disabled people would have to resort to begging (kind of like in the Bush years).
Originally Posted By mele So, do gay families/divorced families really have little value and that is why they do not deserve the same privileges as you enjoy? And the government/society has no interest in creating stability for them? They deserve no stability? Or, just less than you deserve. But don't call him a bigot, folks. Wow. Just wow.
Originally Posted By FaMulan Josh, read the following, then explain to me about how families should only be a man, woman and child(ren) <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-koch/how-my-lesbian-boss-makes_b_139256.html" target="_blank">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...256.html</a> How My Lesbian Boss Makes Me a Better Father Why Straight Parents Need to Take a Strong Stand Against Prop 8 A short while after my son was born, my wife brought him into the office to meet my co-workers. My wife was still nursing. My infant son was hungry and my wife was going to breast feed him in my crammed office. Within seconds of learning this, my boss cleared everyone out of the comfortable lounge where we entertain high-profile clients, magically pulled her old nursing pillow out of a nearby closet, and immediately put my wife at ease. I stood in amazement as I watched the scenario unfold. My boss looked at me and said, "Don't just stand there, get her a glass of water." I never forgot the glass of water again and it was the first of many lessons my lesbian boss has taught me about how to be a better father. There was another time my boss walked in on the nervous phone argument I was having with my wife over whether or not we were going to vaccinate our child. She stopped what she was doing, led me into her office where she promptly whipped out the paper equivalent of the Warren Commission report on pros and cons of childhood vaccinations. I could list dozens of similar examples of the parental wisdom that has been passed down from my boss. She and her wife are super-moms. You would be hard pressed to find parents who love their kids as much or who are as actively engaged in the well-being and development of children. When my wife and I wrestle with the millions of choices parents wrestle with, we often look to the decisions made by other parents we respect as a guide. Kelly and Linda would be at the top of that list. If there is one thing fatherhood has taught me, it is that good parents help make other parents good. And very often we straight Dads can use all the advice we can get.
Originally Posted By BlueDevilSF I saw this on DailyKos so I take it with a grain (or two) of salt: "ustice George, who wrote the opinion, based on California court precedentand NOT on U.S. Supreme Ct rulings. The case relied upon heavily was from the 40's involving mixed race marriages which stood for the principle that choice of marital partner is a fundamental right that cannot be infringed without without a truly compelling governmental interest. Justice George's opinion did not set up a new suspect class based based upon sexual orientation as most commentators seem to assume. Here's the good part. There is ample precedent under CA law that alterations of fundamental rights cannot to done with a mere amendment via majority vote of the electorate. This would constitute a "revision" of the CA Constitution would requires 2/3 vote of both Houses of Legislature AND a 2/3 vote by the electorate or alternatively a State Constitutional Convention called by 2/3 vote of both houses. It will have to be litigated but we will prevail." I don't know how legally sound this is. Maybe SPP can comment?
Originally Posted By mele I wonder what Josh feels the government's role in his life is. I think my rights should equal is in this country. I pay taxes and I am allowed to vote. And yet my government isn't supposed to "condone" my behavior or isn't in place to take my needs into account. My country isn't a better place because of me or my family. We don't matter quite as much as Josh's family does. (Of course, this is in theory because my hetero marriage of 10.5 years, with 2 kids, is infinitely more important and better for society than his...if we were to use his standards.) Nice.
