Originally Posted By ecdc >>Who said it was just the mormons?<< No one. But Mormons **by far** were the biggest donors to the prop 8 cause. And until their huge influx of cash, the polls showed prop 8 going down in a flaming defeat. Don't make the mistake of thinking some of us are just unfairly making Mormonism the unfortunate whipping boy for this. They've more than earned the criticism; it's not nearly equal to the hatred they've spread by opposing prop 8.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Likely, the gays presently married stay married. There is no retroactivity applicable here. Choke on that, bigoted hateful Mormons. As if this will stop gays from being gay, from living together, and committing to each other. All this has accomplished is to create a set of enemies for the Mormons they'll wish they never had.
Originally Posted By mele They spent millions convincing people that their children were going to be hearing disgusting details of gay sex and would be taught all about gay marriage. 1.) gay marriage is the same as hetero marriage so I'm not sure what other details there would be. 2.) marriage isn't "taught". In OPTIONAL sex ed classes, kids are encouraged to have sex w/in marriage or committed relationships. That's it. There isn't graphic depictions of anal sex or detailed talk of how to get K-Y out of your sheets. Ridiculous. They weren't able to back up one single part of their argument and yet they scared just over half of the population. Common sense still ain't common.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I would have thought many christians, jews and muslims would vote against this as they are taught by their faith that homosexuality is immoral. The attitude is changing, but I am surprised people are surprised this was lost. I am not surprised. But it has certainly prompted me to question my own perceptions and hopefully that of many others.
Originally Posted By -em >>Common sense still ain't common.<< Agreed- and its not like the straight have done such a great job on the whole marriage front anyway.. The divorce rate is what around 50%? (I know I know I'm not one to talk..) Why not give everyone the chance to experience bad marriages and divorce? Why save it for just the straight people? Share the joy!
Originally Posted By mele I think the worst thing that also passed was in Arkansas where unmarried couples (gays) will no longer be allowed to foster children or adopt. Gays tend to have more $ and education. That doesn't necessarily make a better parent but neither does being straight. Disgusting.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo That's ok, here in the UK, one authority has stopped smokers fostering. That is rediculous too.
Originally Posted By BlueDevilSF >>Who said it was just the mormons?<< Nobody did, but consider this from the article I linked earlier: "As a result, the Salt Lake City-based church gets the credit and the blame for leading the cause. According to Californians Against Hate, Mormons have donated more than $19 million to the cause - nearly four out of five dollars raised."
Originally Posted By mele See, I don't think that's too out of line as long as you can prove that the parent will smoke around the children. Lots of smokers do not smoke inside or around their children. Then I don't think it matters. There are very real consequences of second hand smoke. As far as I know, there aren't any consequences of having gay parents (except for the bigotry others will inflict upon them...but why punish the parents for the rest of the world being jerks).
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Well mele, there are many who would say they are being bigoted against smokers. Where do you draw the line, especially if people have tried to stop and are addicted? Where do human rights start and stop?
Originally Posted By gottaluvdavillains <<<So if California was overwhemingly for Obama, then how the hell did this not pass? Do the Mormons seriously have that much pull>>> In some of the interviews last week in some of the promidently black neighborhoods there was more yes on 8 than no on 8 banners. When some of the leaders of the communities were interviewed they said they were for prop 8 because of the comparisons being made between homosexuality and racism... The were offended that they were being considered the same. One comment was something about the fact that the homosexual community had not been persicuted in the same way as the black community. And they weren't treated as badly as the those who marched along side Dr. King and Malcom X.
Originally Posted By gottaluvdavillains <<That's ok, here in the UK, one authority has stopped smokers fostering. That is rediculous too.>>> No it's not - It is illegal to smoke in a car in the state of California with a minor child. Smoking is a choice - sexuality is not.
Originally Posted By mele Like I said, I don't care if people smoke, I just don't think they should do it around their children (especially children who aren't theirs). I've never voted against smokers and am not someone to campaign against them, but I've lost a step-parent to smoking, was born with some health problems due to my mother's smoking and lost some other things in my life that I won't go into here. I just don't think they have the right to do it around their children because of the well documented health issues.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Rail on, rail on. Truth and righteousness will ultimately prevail, but we've known extreme wickedness would reign first. It's been expected and prophecied. But we still fight for what's right.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>No it's not - It is illegal to smoke in a car in the state of California with a minor child. Smoking is a choice - sexuality is not.<<< Some would argue not when addicted. This is my point, people are calling others out about intolerance when there are many different perspectives. Without discussing them, understanding could not be had.
Originally Posted By gottaluvdavillains <<I would have thought many christians, jews and muslims would vote against this as they are taught by their faith that homosexuality is immoral. The attitude is changing, but I am surprised people are surprised this was lost. I am not surprised. But it has certainly prompted me to question my own perceptions and hopefully that of many others.>> I am sure many people did vote for this - but only the Mormon Church came out as a Church for this. The Mormon Church campaigned for this! They sent money from another state to fund a proposition in my state!! That is wrong.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <- but only the Mormon Church came out as a Church for this. > And you call ME ignorant?
Originally Posted By mele There are lots of things we don't do around children for lots of reasons but I don't think that makes a person intolerant. If a person is addicted to tobacco, then they need to dose themselves appropriately and still make sure that the health of children is not affected. Saying that doesn't make me intolerant in any way shape or form. Even while in a car, an addict can pull off of the road and step out of their car, away from their children, to have a smoke. I mean, c'mon.
Originally Posted By Hans Reinhardt "One comment was something about the fact that the homosexual community had not been persicuted in the same way as the black community. And they weren't treated as badly as the those who marched along side Dr. King and Malcom X." Well I think in some ways that's true. Still, persecution isn't the issue here. The civil rights of one group of people has been violated with the passage of this law. That point cannot be rationalized away no matter what anyone says.
