Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Yes it does happen, hell skinner implied in another thread that Republicans in FL do it... >>> Where was this? <<< So let's stop the partisan BS... >>> Yes, let's. Are you claiming that the Republican-led efforts for voting reform such as those recently passed in PA are not done with the intent of swinging elections to the GOP?
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Way to put words at my fingertips, William. I stated no such thing. The only thing I stated was that there seemed to be concern from Dems in states like Florida and Arizona, where a significant percentage of retirees or "snowbirds" are only present in their winter homes for three months out of the year. And these snowbirds typically take up residence in their winter homes right around election time. The concern stems from absentee ballots being mailed in October by the retirees in their home states, before they leave for their winter homes in Florida and Arizona. Then, once settled in, they presumably vote a second time in their vacationing winter state. OK, genius... explain to me how exactly a photo I.D. prevents this kind of voter fraud? A retiree in New York who also owns a vacation home in Florida can legally have a driver's license in both states. Residency is proven with utility bills, mortgage statements, property tax statements, et al. And there is no way at the present time for Florida to prove that the retiree already voted via absentee ballot in New York, when said retiree appears at the polls in Florida in November. That is NOT voter fraud via voter impersonation. The retiree is a citizen and has dual residency. Photo I.D. will NEVER prevent this particular kind of voter fraud. And since most of the presumed fraud of this kind would most likely be perpetrated by the demographic which utilizes absentee ballot the most -- older white registered Republicans -- the GOP leadership pushing for voter I.D. laws refuses to touch the absentee ballot issue with a ten-foot pole. The GOP knows full well that absentee ballot fraud mostly benefits their candidates. For that reason, Republican state legislatures will never do anything to address it.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< OK, genius... explain to me how exactly a photo I.D. prevents this kind of voter fraud? >>> My point exactly.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf <<You've just contradicted yourself and proven my point about the Voter ID requirements. Your mother-in-law isn't a citizen but has a gov't issued photo ID. If it was a PA state ID, and she'd be entitled to one if she lived there, she'd be allowed to vote with that alone. I'll say it again: Voter ID does not prevent non-citizens from voting. The only type of voter fraud it prevents is impersonation, which is virtually non-existent.>> C'mon, you know the ID laws are not meant for registration - they are meant to verify the identities of registered voters when they vote. So my point is valid: if a non-voter immigrant can get a government issued ID, why can't someone who cares to vote? If that is too difficult, I wish they wouldn't vote. <<Fox News viewers are the least informed>> Ain't that the truth.... <<And do a little reading on the requirements before you blithely say "put in some effort.") >> <<" I don't think it's too much to ask for somoeone to prove their citizenship in order to vote" You have to prove that when you register. That's how you get on the rolls. >> Yeah, I know. And if you have to prove your identity - that you are the person who registered to vote - what's the harm? Anyone who is disenfranchised by this shouldn't vote. Or do you not value our hard-won freedoms as much as I do?
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<And if you have to prove your identity - that you are the person who registered to vote - what's the harm?>> You haven't read the parts of these laws which specifically state which forms of I.D. are acceptable or else you wouldn't ask the question. The voter I.D. law in PA goes beyond traditionally accepted photo I.D. for proving identity, as do most of the other states with these new laws. You need to read the laws in their entirety to understand why this is solely about disenfranchising voters who don't drive and don't have ready access to DMV offices nor specific types of birth certificates in order to get the officially accepted forms of I.D. for voting. Which in most states, focuses almost exclusively on poor minority voters who almost always vote for Democrats.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 < Yes it does happen, hell skinner implied in another thread that Republicans in FL do it... So let's stop the partisan BS...> Skinner talked about absentee fraud - not the same thing. <Yeah, I know. And if you have to prove your identity - that you are the person who registered to vote - what's the harm? Anyone who is disenfranchised by this shouldn't vote. Or do you not value our hard-won freedoms as much as I do?> What a non-sequitur. It's that hard-won freedom that's being taken away for no good reason. THAT's the harm. In PA (and I can only assume you didn't look into this), between 700,000 and 800,000 citizens who are fully eligible to vote don't have the kind of photo ID PA is trying to require. At the very least, it will cost such a citizen a fee to obtain it, and the people most likely to be disenfranchised are the very people who will have the hardest time paying. This is akin to a poll tax. You are not supposed to have to pay anything in order to vote. We decided this decades ago... or so we thought. That was one of the hard-won freedoms. It gets worse if you weren't born in PA. You have to go to the place you were born and try to get a copy of your birth certificate - which in some cases doesn't exist any more. Then you have to take that certificate (if you can get it) to a finite number of places in PA, hope they accept it (and reports are that this acceptance is not being enforced equally), pay a fee, and hopefully then get your ID. All for what? To combat a problem that doesn't exist. Or actually, not. It's actually designed - and the head of the GOP in PA was caught on tape admitting this - to disenfranchise the "wrong" people and give PA to Romney (and other GOP candidates down-ballot in the process). They know full well that even if 90% of the voters were able to jump through all those hoops (a very generous estimate), that's still tens of thousands of voters who either 1). don't know about the new rules, because they've voted in some cases for decades without them; 2). Can't pay the fee they shouldn't have to pay in the first damn place; 3). Simply give up, deciding "it's too much trouble for my one vote;" or 4). Do their best to jump through those hoops and are still unable to. In my state, you have to sign your name as you vote, and it has to match the signature they have on file. This I have no problem with. It's simple, elegant, and free. And it's actually a hell of a lot easier to get a fake ID if you were really hell-bent on in-person impersonation than it is to become an expert forger at the spur of the moment when you see the signature of the guy you're impersonating. This disenfranchises no one, costs the state nothing, costs the voter nothing, and is MORE effective than photo ID's at weeding out this problem - if the problem actually existed, which it doesn't. Let's not forget, the Bush Justice Dept. under Alberto Gonzalez spent FIVE YEARS desperately looking for voter fraud and found NOTHING. Five years of looking, with all the investigative and subpoena power of the Justice Dept. behind it... and bupkis. They even leaned on some states' attorneys to find something - anything - and when those attorneys came up empty, they fired them (remember that scandal?) Even GOP-appointed state attorneys. In-person impersonation: non-problem. Disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of perfectly legal voters for no damn good reason: problem.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< It's actually designed - and the head of the GOP in PA was caught on tape admitting this - to disenfranchise the "wrong" people and give PA to Romney (and other GOP candidates down-ballot in the process). >>> Yep. Here's the tape: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuOT1bRYdK8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...T1bRYdK8</a>
Originally Posted By EdisYoda <<You have to prove that when you register. That's how you get on the rolls>> I've lived, and registered to vote in Utah, Massachusetts, Georgia, California and Ohio, and not once have I had to prove my citizenship to vote. At most, I've had to produce my drivers license and a utility bill, at least, signed my name and filled in my address.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Well in my state you have to; then if you move you've already proven it and can transfer. What state did you live in when you first voted?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Did you register when you were 18 or 19, and living with one or both parents? If your parent(s) are citizens and on the voting rolls, that's all most states need to prove your citizenship.
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 Also, a state issued ID is considered proof. The problem, is that these students aren't "lazy" or can't be bothered. They HAVE their state ID's or driver's license. The problem, in PA, is that the law will now require them to get a PA license. It's not a matter of not having some kind of proof of citizenship, it's that PA want's a different one.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer We already know from GOP statements that these laws are designed to disenfranchise voters who would likely vote for Democrats. That alone is reason enough to throw the laws out.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I wonder how much these useless exercises have cost tax payers? The GOP is attacking a problem that does not really exist, and I'm sure sparing no expense along the way. So much for the lie of "fiscal conservatives."
Originally Posted By Dabob2 This is about another non-problem in "fraud;" not in-person ID but purging the rolls of people who might be non-citizens. <a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=161692314" target="_blank">http://www.npr.org/templates/s...61692314</a> "Republican election officials who promised to root out voter fraud so far are finding little evidence of a widespread problem. State officials in key presidential battleground states have found only a tiny fraction of the illegal voters they initially suspected existed. Searches in Colorado and Florida have yielded numbers that amount to less than one-tenth of 1 percent of all registered voters in either state. Democrats say the searches waste time and, worse, could disenfranchise eligible voters who are swept up in the checks." (snip) "Especially telling, critics of the searches say, is that the efforts are focused on crucial swing states from Colorado to Florida, where both political parties and the presidential campaigns are watching every vote. And in Colorado, most of those who received letters are either Democrats or unaffiliated with a party. It's a similar story in Florida, too." Surprise, surprise.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer The problem that the GOP is trying to fix is indeed real, Kar2oonMan. The problem is that too many people are voting for Democratic candidates. They might be saying that it is about voter fraud, but it's really about restricting suffrage.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Absolutely, TS. The cranky old white guys who watch Fox News all day long are dying off faster than the GOP can replace them. So, the GOP leadership is taking a page from the old days: disenfranchising voters who don't vote for them. Jim Crow lives in the GOP. Fact.
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 Most college students smell like burritos beer and bong resin, can't say I blame the efforts to stiffle their vote.
