Originally Posted By dshyates See douglas, there is a BIG difference between waterboarding prisoners, against their will, in an attempt to gain information and willingly undergoing a waterboarding demonstration.
Originally Posted By dshyates I could consent to having a man anally violate me, but if he does that against my will, its a crime.
Originally Posted By gottaluvdavillains <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W...boarding</a> Okay so I had an idea what waterboarding was - but after reading just part of this... I am just shocked that the US would do this to anyone! <a href="http://waterboarding.org/info" target="_blank">http://waterboarding.org/info</a> Waterboarding induces panic and suffering by forcing a person to inhale water into the sinuses, pharynx, larynx, trachea, and lungs. This father waterboarded and shocked his kids as a Guantanamo Bay style punishment system... Jail for him! <a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1133508/Father-jailed-using-Guantanamo-Bay-style-waterboarding-children.html" target="_blank">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...ren.html</a>
Originally Posted By DAR So should the Wall St execs be waterboarded? That's what we're discussing right?
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Waterboarding induces panic and suffering by forcing a person to inhale water into the sinuses, pharynx, larynx, trachea, and lungs.> Of course, that's not what we did to the few terrorists subjected to "waterboarding", and that's why no one in the Bush administration will be found guilty of war crimes. Some people can't admit this, and so resort to distortion and denigration.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***>>Who exactly is "they"?<< The decision makers at said companies.*** See, this is where you start losing me. Why? Because, what about the stockholders of said company, who by sheer force of will can easily oust any said decision maker who displeases them? And now, who are "them"? Well, for the most part, "them" are faceless institutions themselves, like banks. And they don't have emotions or sentimental feelings about the decision makers. THEY collective moves are based on charts, graphs, algorithms, and future projections..nothing more. So again, I ask you, who are "they"? It's far more complicated than you make it out to be!
Originally Posted By Mr X ***So should the Wall St execs be waterboarded? That's what we're discussing right?*** lol. Boy did this conversation go south. My reply about companies and their methods doesn't even make sense anymore. My bad. Okay, should I comment on waterboarding now? (starting to appreciate why "off topic" isn't such a cool thing )
Originally Posted By mawnck It's far less complicated than you make it out to be. It's a whole lot of guys with no ethics. They aren't faceless - in fact, a bunch of them just got called before Congress so our elected officials can tongue-lash them some more before giving them another few hundred billion bucks of our tax money. You talk as if the math is running these companies, and not CEOs and boards of directors. Nothing could be further from the truth. The math isn't greedy. The math doesn't take vacations with its family on the corporate jet. And the math *certainly* doesn't support Ponzi schemes.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***that's not what we did to the few terrorists subjected to "waterboarding"*** Neither you nor anyone else on LP knows what was or wasn't done to these people. ALL we know, by executive admission, is that some people were subjected to "enhanced interrogation methods" which the President refused to discuss further. For all we know, that could've been broken bones and bamboo under the fingernails and all the rest. Or it could've been a little sleep deprivation. We'll probably never know, and CERTAINLY it's ridiculous for you Doug, to assert otherwise at this time without having any facts to back it up (how can you say what "kind" of waterboarding was done, when the President and the VP and everyone else refuses to discuss specifics?).
Originally Posted By Mr X ***It's far less complicated than you make it out to be. It's a whole lot of guys with no ethics.*** I'm not talking about the excesses here, so I'll just go ahead and agree with your whole post there. What I AM talking about is the fact that Congress hands a bunch of companies a crapload of money, without legally specifying what they MUST use the money for (and perhaps more importantly, what they CAN'T do with the money), and then shake their heads in disbelief when said companies horde the cash or whatever instead of using it to lend more like they were "supposed to". There's no "supposed to" when it isn't legally spelled out. The institutions will do whatever they feel is best for them in a case like this. I think we're talking beside each other here. I'm no less disgusted with the lack of ethics as the next guy. What I'm talking about is the fact that Congress shakes their heads in disbelief when the companies don't do what Congress "hoped" they would do with it. Congress should have been less naive.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>I think we're talking beside each other here. I'm no less disgusted with the lack of ethics as the next guy. What I'm talking about is the fact that Congress shakes their heads in disbelief when the companies don't do what Congress "hoped" they would do with it. Congress should have been less naive.<< Yep - definitely talking past each other. I agree with everything you said there. I'm not sure *all* of Congress was that naive, but enough of them were. Still are, unless I miss my guess.
Originally Posted By mawnck BTW ... I did happen to catch Pres. O's interview on the Today show this morning, in which he said something that makes me think he might not be as naive after all: >>No, it — we're not gonna be spending $4 trillion worth of taxpayer money. It's conceivable that we have more — not only is it conceivable, it is likely that the banks have not fully acknowledged all the losses that they're gonna experience. They're gonna have to write down those losses. And some banks won't make it. Other banks — are gonna make sure that — we strengthen. All deposits are gonna be — safe for ordinary people. But we're gonna have to wring out some of these bad assets.<< <a href="http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/28975726/" target="_blank">http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/28975726/</a>
Originally Posted By alexbook >>So should the Wall St execs be waterboarded? That's what we're discussing right?<< Thank you, DAR, for brightening an otherwise tedious discussion.
Originally Posted By Mr X Oh, I don't think the President is naive on this issue, many members of the House sure are though (clueless might be more like it). I watched all their commentary the day the TARP issue failed..scary stuff, and yes they were in an utter panic at the time (based almost solely on the comments of two men). As for the President, I think he's sharp, bordering on brilliant. I think he does have a good handle on what's going on (whether or not he can FIX it though, is another question entirely).
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <We'll probably never know, and CERTAINLY it's ridiculous for you Doug, to assert otherwise at this time without having any facts to back it up (how can you say what "kind" of waterboarding was done, when the President and the VP and everyone else refuses to discuss specifics?).> Ah yes. It's ridiculous for me to assert things that defend the Bush administration, but not for those that attack. Got it.
Originally Posted By Mr X No, it's ridiculous of you to assert claims that you have no way of knowing about.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Sure, if hiring tax cheats is your ideal of competence.>> Tax cheats? Like McCain not paying property tax on his San Diego condo for FOUR YEARS?? Daschle made an honest mistake. I don't see how someone can honestly forget to pay property taxes four years in a row. That's a tax cheat. None of McCain's supporters who are currently snarking at Daschle gave a groundhog's arse about McCain's "tax oversight" during the campaign. I'm sick of Republican hypocrisy. Enough.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Daschle made an honest mistake. I don't see how someone can honestly forget to pay property taxes four years in a row. That's a tax cheat. < Really ? You want to claim a senator what wrote tax laws for the books , doesn't understand tax law ? That's an honest mistake ? I don't think so... you gotta have a better defense than that and oh, someone else did it.
