Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>Perhaps the reason for this isn't just that the Disney fans are opposed to change, but rather they've seen Disney's recent track record and knows what to expect from them. Personally, I would be fine with major changes/removals of almost every attraction in WDW (there are some exceptions of things that need to stay but can be updated, like SSE and the American Adventure), but I just don't trust them to do a good job any more.<<< Absolutely. I am in this camp too. I think the updates they did to the Jungle Cruise and Haunted Mansion in Anaheim were great. And I am fully supportive of them, and would welcome more. But most updates have been a bust, lower budget, and farnkly their batting average is too poor now. I want Disney parks to change, but for the better. And in the main, I would say for the last 10 years, with perhaps the exception of what is happening in DCA (even if it is damn toon synergy), not much of the change has been for the better. I haven't given up full hope quite yet, as Star Tours sounds great, but George Lucas is still alive and has a very interest. And the conclusion I have come to is that the best work is where there is a personal vested interest of those leading. Disney (and Knott's) use to be family owned parks, and it is when they did their best work. Mack still owns Europa Park, and operationally and in terms of maintenance they beat Disney and Universal. and that is the key (after all, would Harry Potterland be as good if J K Rowling were dead? You bet it wouldn't be). and that is the golden bullet IMHO.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>Fastpass is one things, but what makes little of no sense to me is when Disney intentionally is running rides at half capacity. BTMRR and the Great Movie Ride are noctorious for this. How many times have we all been on BTMRR and one only side is being run? Or tGMR and they are only running two cars?<<< Ya, I am totally with you on this. Once upon a time, Disney would run shorter hours in the off season, but the rides still largely at capacity. So it didn't matter that the park closed at 8 instead of midnight, you could still get everything you wanted to done and enjoyed the streetmousphere with lower crowds. Now, they work to the 10 attraction formula and artificially allow lines to lengthen (as well as the FP mess). Well our trip to Europa Park really showed us the difference here. As Mack use the park as their showroom to sell the attractions to other parks, they run the rides at capacity all the time. we were there during Easter break, with large crowds by their standards (they extended closing time by 90 minutes). We were able to do 29 attractions including an hour worth of shows in our first day. The rides loaded fast and efficiently, and the longerst queues were for the coasters. It was increadible. There were no fast passes, so the lines continually moved. The maintenace was first rate, the gardens gorgeous and there was live entertainment everywhere. In terms of it's spirit, it felt like the Disney park of my childhood (minus the huge budget theming, but still, better than most non Disney parks). The kids perfer Europa Park to DL, WDW or DLP now, and although I do not necessarily agree with them, I can totally understand why. If Mack ran Disney, we would have the perfect park IMHO.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper <<Or tGMR and they are only running two cars?>> That really doesn't reduce the capacity like you'd think. The days they're running gangster-only are the days where they just don't need the whole capacity, which is humongous. <<The "good" way it to let your Fastpass people come up to the line, then in an equal number of regular line people. So that you are always keeping your line moving. I don't know how many times I have stood waiting to get onto either Dinosaur or Kilimagaro and there is just a stead stream of Fastpassers so that you are just standing there for 30 minutes waiting for a lull in the Fastpass line.>> Until they start enforcing the times on Fastasses, you'll never see an equal distribution of guests being allowed through merge. The rules are for every 8 fastpassers you let through, you have to let 2 stand-byes in. Unfortunately, since we're not allowed to enforce the strict hour time-limits, the fastpass lines often become flooded with people, and it becomes necessary to clear it out. That's how the CMs are trained.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<That really doesn't reduce the capacity like you'd think. The days they're running gangster-only are the days where they just don't need the whole capacity, which is humongous.>> I will offer several rides for examples. Toy Story, Kilimajaro, Soaring, Winnie the Poo, Peter Pan and Dinosaur where unless you have a Fastpass your in line for easily an hour or more. On all these attractions I have literally stood there waiting, praying there would be a lull in the number of Fastpass holders in the fastpass line so that somebody, anybody from the regular line would be allowed in. In terms of Soarin there is no excuse because Soarin has two screens. let the Fastpassers use on screen and the regular line use the other. Non Fastpass holders are NOT 2nd class guests. It makes for a BAD Disney experience and people get fed up with it! I'm shocked to find out there actually is a set policy involving Fastpassers versus regular line guests. The ONLY time I have ever witnessed a castmember holding Fastpassers back and letting regular line people advance was once and that was on Kali river run. It was a Chinese female castmember and she was doing a mix of 50/50 Fastpassers and regular line people.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper ^^^Right...what you quoted from me has nothing to do with fastpass, though. Haha
Originally Posted By MPierce >> On all these attractions I have literally stood there waiting, praying there would be a lull in the number of Fastpass holders in the fastpass line so that somebody, anybody from the regular line would be allowed in. In terms of Soarin there is no excuse because Soarin has two screens. let the Fastpassers use on screen and the regular line use the other. Non Fastpass holders are NOT 2nd class guests. It makes for a BAD Disney experience and people get fed up with it! << That's why they should do away with FP. At least enforce the time on the FP ticket. Just like Hokie Skipper says (and he should know) they do not let the CM enforce the times.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom That was the only exception. On all other ocassions I have always, always, always, always, always, always, always, always seen the regular line guest held back while the Fastpassers have exclusive rights to the rides/ attractions. The only time I have riden Toy Story I was in line for two hours before getting on that ride because there were so many Fastpassers and the castmembers alwasy let the Fastpassers on before regular line guests. Only during a lull were regular line guests allowed to advance onto the ride. On my last trip to DHS my party was waiting in the outter hall of the Great Movie Ride( and I mean OUTER HALL, not the room with the carosel horse and costumes in it the outer hall with the two story ceiling). This had NEVER happened to me in all the times I have been on that ride from when the park first opened. I was telling the rest of my party not to worry because the line moves quick. Over and hour later ( I practically have the entire film segument memorized ) we advance to find the ride is running at half capacity. I'm sorry but when the line is begining to wrap around the Mickey sorcerer hat you'd think that might be a clue to begin running at full capacity. I have given up riding anything in Fantasyland during the day. Now, I just wait for the Extra Magic Hours and ride at midnight when the crowds are lighter.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<...what you quoted from me has nothing to do with fastpass, though. Haha>> Hokie, I gave several examples of rides that have for all practical purposes become FASTPASS ONLY attractions! <<That's why they should do away with FP.>> I disagree. Fastpass is there for a reason. Many people can't stand in line in the Florida heat and humidity for hours on end to get onto an attraction. AND when your a guest and you can get very popular attractions with little or no wait, It's A Small World, Pirates, SSE, Haunted Mansion. It's very frustrating and doesn't make much sense to be waiting forever and a day to get on Splash, BTMRR, Toy Story, the Great Movie Ride, Kilimajaro and Dinosaur.
Originally Posted By MPierce What you describe Tom is the reason I never get in a standby line at the major attractions.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom Again the solution is to have a mix of Fastpassers and regular line guests. Keep the lines moving!
Originally Posted By MPierce >> I disagree. Fastpass is there for a reason. Many people can't stand in line in the Florida heat and humidity for hours on end to get onto an attraction. AND when your a guest and you can get very popular attractions with little or no wait, It's A Small World, Pirates, SSE, Haunted Mansion. It's very frustrating and doesn't make much sense to be waiting forever and a day to get on Splash, BTMRR, Toy Story, the Great Movie Ride, Kilimajaro and Dinosaur. << You left out the or enforce the times on the pass. How did people manage at WDW before FP if it's a must have.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<What you describe Tom is the reason I never get in a standby line at the major attractions.>> Again BAD SHOW!!!! Do a 50/50 mix of Fastpassers and regular guests. Heck, I would even settle for the "policy" Hokie is talking about and for ever 8 Fastpassers let 2 people in from the "standby line". How lame!
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom <<How did people manage at WDW before FP if it's a must have.>> Simple! Back then they didn't have a million people in the parks at a time! In fact back in the early days of the Magic Kingdom Walt built in several attractions to keep guests busy; swan boats, sky ride. So at least there was always something to experience. But I suppose that was what Eisner was shooting for when he created Pooh playground, something to keep the folks busy <sar>. In terms of DAK, I'm not going to blame the rides... there is such a lack of rides and attractions to do you can actually Fastpass all 7 attractions in that park and call it a day. Lines at DHS are because in the case of the Great Movie Ride... it's consistently run at half capacity. And with Toy Story...... the casemembers ALWAYS let Fastpassers on first and if your in the "standby line" that means unless there is a lull in the Fastpass line you don't stand a chance of getting on it. But, hey.... it's got an interactive que, right?
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer 1999, with the idea of getting people out of line and into the shops.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>How did people manage at WDW before FP if it's a must have.<<< Tougher, less wimpy generation??? >>>Simple! Back then they didn't have a million people in the parks at a time! In fact back in the early days of the Magic Kingdom Walt built in several attractions to keep guests busy; swan boats, sky ride. So at least there was always something to experience.<<< Not that I recall. The extra's you mentioned were all limited and slow loaders. One you didn't mention directly was 20K and that was the slowest of the slow, yet totally doable. Up until the early 80's there was only one park and it was as busy, if not busier, than it is today. It was the only show in town. The waits were long but a lot less frustrating. Why? Because the line kept moving. It wasn't stopping dead for minutes on end while Fastpassers went zooming past. I'm sorry, but I will always believe that Fastpass, although good for some, was and is a negative for the vast majority. Upsetting the majority is not the best way to do business in my mind. And just for the record, Walt built nothing in Florida's Magic Kingdom, he was dead for 6 years before it was built and even when it was in planning, he didn't have much interest in it. EPCOT was his focus and he left his experienced imagineers to plan MK.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper <<Because the line kept moving. It wasn't stopping dead for minutes on end while Fastpassers went zooming past. I'm sorry, but I will always believe that Fastpass, although good for some, was and is a negative for the vast majority. Upsetting the majority is not the best way to do business in my mind.>> As much as I love fastpass, if for no other reason that I know how to exploit the system, it is a terrible system. Universal's is much better. Yes, you have to pay, but that also limits the amount of Express Passes you have in the park each day. And yes, you would have long lines without fastpass, but as Goofyer said, the lines would be continuously moving. When I was a kid before fastpass, I never remember being as pissed off in line as I do when I'm on line for a ride like TSMM.
Originally Posted By Manfried I think that Disney let WDW rest on its resort laurels way too long. They have spent too much time building resort hotels, and not giving people new reasons to go to the theme parks. EPCOT in its World Showcase is a prime example.
