Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer I just honestly hope that WDW starts to compete after this. They HAVE to. But I am SO psyched for IoA and Uni... This will help complete their resort.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>I just don't understand the love for Mission Space. You sit in a centrifuge looking at a screen - to me, it's basically the Gravitron with a tv monitor in front of you. Yes, I get that there is some sophisticated technology behind the experience, but it just doesn't translate into that amazing of an experience for me. And compared to the attraction that it replaced, it's just a one-trick pony. Horizons utilized dozens of different effects and technology to create an amazing 15 minute journey into the future - Mission Space uses one effect for about 3 minutes. For me, there's just no comparison.<<< There are many things that I don't "get" that others love but that doesn't mean that it is bad. Just not to my tastes. I liked Horizons but if one is honest with themselves, it was a crashing bore. After the initial awesome start with Figment and the Dreamfinder...riding along side them in flight, it was nothing, absolutely nothing. The only redeeming value was the orange grove and the connection with Carousel of Progress musically. No one was going to it. In it's final years it wasn't even a walk on, it could have been a run on. Mission Space represented an effort from Disney that costs a lot of money and actually ended up mediocre because of a couple of untimely health issues with a couple of riders. It got a bad rep. and it basically died from there. Unfortunately, that cause a lot of hesitation whenever someone mentions spending large amounts of money for a new attraction. There was redundancy in EPCOT Center. Spaceship Earth, Horizons, World of Motion, Imagination all were basically the same ride with a slightly different theme. Don't get me wrong, I love omni mover rides and would still be riding them today if they existed. Now to the issue...I said many years ago that technologically, Universal exceeded Disney by leaps and bounds both in mechanical and imaginative attractions. Jaws, Earthquake, Twister, Back to the Future and even to some extent E.T., were superior dark rides or shows. Spiderman was over the top when it came to fun. The reason it seems more like an amusement park to some is the obvious presence of massive outside rollercoasters and their ToT is nothing more than a carnival grade external drop ride. Islands of Adventure has something for everyone and now with the addition of Harry Potter it has jumped way ahead of Disney in entertainment value. They took the concept from Disney and then "plussed" it. I wonder where they got that idea from.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost I don't know how I did it but I left out The Terminator at Uni. which is one of the best 4D shows anywhere. I've seen it many times and never tire of it. And yet I still go to Disney because I love what it does have to offer and the nostalgia that I relate to it. What can I say...I'm a softy.
Originally Posted By leobloom >> I liked Horizons but if one is honest with themselves, it was a crashing bore. After the initial awesome start with Figment and the Dreamfinder...riding along side them in flight, it was nothing, absolutely nothing. The only redeeming value was the orange grove and the connection with Carousel of Progress musically. No one was going to it. In it's final years it wasn't even a walk on, it could have been a run on. << I'm confused. Are you describing Horizons or Imagination or both? If I was honest with myself, I doubt I'd call Horizons a crushing bore. It and World of Motion were the two rides that I thought best used the Epcot long-dark-ride format.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper <<After the initial awesome start with Figment and the Dreamfinder...riding along side them in flight, it was nothing, absolutely nothing.>> Can't agree there. JII was the best fantasy dark ride on property its entire run.
Originally Posted By Christi22222 Before it gets too far lost in this very dynamic and interesting thread, I'd like to say to Hopemax that post #50 was great. Thanks! Carry on....very intrigued.....
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Just around the same time WDW grand opens the new Star Tours. Coincidence? I think not...>> I know I said I wouldn't be posting until later in the week, but I'm a bit pumped ... saw one thing worth seeing at WDW tonight ... La Nouba ... and for fourth time in as many viewings, didn't pay for it But I see the thread has taken off ... maybe I can drive some traffic LP's way since things have been dying here. So ... <<If what I'm hearing is true, the Star Tours opening will be laughable compared to what Universal is set to announce. Hell, the FLE paired with Star Tours will be laughable. I sure hope my info is good.>> Well, my info is that Potter Phase II has been approved and will be large and include two more signature attractions, plus UNI will be adding two majors at the old park, including the Transformers ride going into Hollywood and Singapore ... and a water park is happening too. Oh, and those Marvel characters that Disney paid $4 billion for? They're going to help keep guests flowing through IOA's gates as well. Yeah, I kinda think Disney's redo of Star Tours, no matter how good, just doesn't match up to that. But look at those amazing hotels and timeshares ... and let's not forget the absurd waste of money on interactive queues (might do a thread on them) ... and how do you celebrate a milestone 40th anniversary? Yep ... a D23 whorefest for drooling fanbois and bloggers and lots of retro merchandise to remind you that WDW truly didn't always suck this much. But the big thing is UNI is just gotten to the point where they are looking to truly battle Disney with substance and quality and respect for guests ... and having a 'wittle' announcement the day before the bloggers and OCD fanbois go to TPFKaTD-MGMS and blather on about how MAGICal it is, well that is UNI throwing down the gauntlet.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I just don't understand the love for Mission Space. You sit in a centrifuge looking at a screen - to me, it's basically the Gravitron with a tv monitor in front of you.>> I think you are way off on that one. It is nothing like a Gravitron. On that ride you definitely felt the spinning motion. Not so on Mission Space. If you look at the screen as instructed, there is virtually no feeling of spinning... just of being pushed back into your seat like would happen during lift off. I've read that some former astronauts have said that it is the closed thing to experiencing a liftoff without actually doing it. I doubt anyone ever said that about the Gravitron. It was amusing being stuck to the wall as the bottom dropped, but the experience was 100% different.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<But the big thing is UNI is just gotten to the point where they are looking to truly battle Disney with substance and quality and respect for guests>> I'll certainly agree with that. But if you remember my initial post I said WDW was a superior RESORT destination. And although the fan-boys may dismiss the importance of golf courses, watercraft, etc, for me it is a part of the overall experience. I've often said I could enjoy a week at WDW without ever setting foot in a themepark. As good as Universal is, that just would not be the case there.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<It is really sad. The cult follower in me wants Disney to be the very best, and we know they can do it. But for some reason they have stopped.>> Money. Pure and simple. They believe they can get away with lowering the bar ... and have done so for a decade plus now. They also believe they can co-opt the fan community by kissing up to bloggers by making people (mostly folks who are used to being very insignificant and many with all sorts of social phobias) do free PR for 'media invites', swag and access to an Imagineer or low level exec. <<We met a few people from Florida this last trip and I asked them their fav restaurant in your state. They all said Tchoup chop. I think that is telling!>> It is INCREDIBLE. And except for a $38 filet (still $4-5 less than most Disney locales), most entrees for dinner are between $16 and $26 ... and food is top notch. Lunches start at $8 (or the price of a hot dog and fries at Casey's). The servers are all a cut above most at Disney. They look like they work at a REAL high end locale. The dining room is beautifully designed. You never have to ask for a drink refill and they have a team that works for you. The patrons (again, a cut above Disney clientele) understand what a dress code is. Children are few, but the ones present are very well-behaved. I even saw one young man in a tie, which certainly isn't required for anyone ... but again speaks to cultured guests who would never think of showing up in sandals and Grumpy tees at the California Grill demanding to 'just have a steak and potato'. I honestly would place it above EVERY WDW eatery I have been to with the exception of Victoria and Albert's ... and (sadly) that includes some of my real favorites like the aforementioned Cal Grill, Jiko, Artist Point and Narcoosee's. I am getting hungry just thinking of the place. Oh, they also offer FREE valet (self too) parking for those coming from WDW or elsewhere.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I should add that I'm looking at this resort vs resort, I'm not taking into consideration "how many parks" or anything along the lines of the SCOPE of WDW which will never be outdone, I'm quite sure of that.>> Agreed. And I am doing likewise because MAGICal fanbois may blather on about the Richard Petty experience or tennis courts or renting boats or bikes, but the reality is most of that simply exists because it's a remnant of what was THe Vacation Kingdom of the World. Most guests visit the parks. Hell, many don't even visit the water parks or explore their resorts. But this thread was intended to point out how far I believe Disney has fallen (although I've seen good stuff ... everything from replacing the rotting facade of the MS Confectionary to a manager at the GF actually nicely suggesting to guests that they take their Gasparilla's fast food out to tables set up near the GF Cafe -- something that frankly should NEVER be allowed and Disney has let slide for 15 years now. Nothing says PWT more than having a picnic of burger baskets and chicken nuggets in the lobby of what is supposed to be a 5-star hotel ... to some very nice renovation work on the BW ... to even the new meet-greet-and grope for the mice and princesses) while UNI has raised the quality of its product across the board and is now going after a more monied and cultured guest than Disney is. Hell, they had fire-twirlers and a live band performing poolside at the Royal Pacific last night with only a few dozen guests around ... and the show looked better than the dinner show at the Poly ... for FREE. That's the type of thing Disney of the 70s-90s would have done. Today's Disney will have someone on the CP coloring by the pool with your brat if you are there on a busy day. <<As Dave has oft mentioned, Epcot and Animal Kingdom are the stars of the show in Florida. It'd be pretty tough to beat THAT (even with a dumbed down Epcot).>> I'd agree. And EPCOT really pleased me with a Flower and Garden Fest that felt far fresher this year (as I've said in another thread) ... DAK on the other hand, as much as it pains me to say, is just a mess ... guess the new VP is doing a MAGICal job. I enjoyed the gorillas and the tigers and laughing at the fact so many CMs seemed to have just moved down to retire from Massachusetts (the accents were hard to miss!) ... but the park just has so many issues now from Disco Yeti to Primeval Killer to Static Dinosaurs to forests of bamboo stumps to CMs who don't get you call animal care immediately when a bird is dropping dead in the aviary in front of guests. Damn, I wish Joe Rohde was around O-town last week.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I agree, for families with small kids UNI still falls short, but my kids are growing, and Sea World/Uni has much more interest from us than the Mouse. No, I don't want to play the Toy Story Game I have on my Wii (and it is a poor game) when I can be walking through Hogsmeade.>> You could have a helluva vacation in FLA, although not nearly what you just had in Europe, if you did a UNI/IOA, SW/DC/Aquatica, Cape Canaveral centric trip with maybe three days at Disney tossed in (I'm sure we could find a CM or two who would even comp you in, so Bob and Willow wouldn't make anything on you!) I think the WDW-centric paradigm for FLA theme park vacations is about to truly undergo a seismic shift. NEXT GEN is no answer to Potter. Neither are redos no matter how well done (like Mansion, HoP and likely Star Tours) to existing attractions. That's plussing. It's not adding or expanding. For a good 15-20 years now many people have felt a Central FLA vacation was 10 days at the BW or PO or ASMu etc ... maybe they'd rent a car and drive off for a day or a meal or two, but largely not. I sense that shifting. I think people, both WDW vets not blinded by pixie dust as well as newbies who are hearing about The Boy Wizard Up I-4 may start thinking 'We can do a day MK and maybe a day or two at EPCOT and that's it'. There's been rumors swirling that DAK could go to five day weeks on an experimental basis this fall. And those aren't from fanbois. And the only reason Disney is pumping up hours at Studios (yes, 8-midnight on ST 2.0's opening weekend for the first time since the 1990s) and returning Fantasmic to nightly showings this summer is that park is struggling a lot at the gate as well. People may always visit MK (not quite sure why when its the worst run of the five on the planet) and they seem to still feel EPCOT has a lot to offer, but Gates 3 and 4 are already losing guests to everything from Disney's own water parks to IOA to SW. And ask yourself just what is Disney doing that approaches the scope of what UNI did at WWoHP ... nothing. And the NEW, NEW, NEW, NEW, NEW, NEW and TIMELESS Fantasyland isn't the Potter Swatter anymore than the Animation Motel or the five DVC projects in the pipeline are. I'll see you all a little later ...
Originally Posted By Christi22222 >>There's been rumors swirling that DAK could go to five day weeks on an experimental basis this fall. And those aren't from fanbois. And the only reason Disney is pumping up hours at Studios (yes, 8-midnight on ST 2.0's opening weekend for the first time since the 1990s) and returning Fantasmic to nightly showings this summer is that park is struggling a lot at the gate as well.<< This is interesting. I would rather have the parks less often available, but with better offerings (longer hours, higher staff levels, etc.) so I'd be willing to reserve judgement on a 5 day schedule. However, when you already have capacity issues elsewhere, and DTD is so slimmed down that it doesn't eat the same number of non-park folks, this seems like a risky move for a "resort" destination. Disney seems to have reduced and limited in ways that don't maximize possibilities when they are available, just cause folks to determine they are worthless and shun them. You go to DTD enough when there aren't any new stores, or shuttered ones, and you just quit going. You go to Studios enough as an underinformed guest and miss a F! night when it's one of the few highlights of the park, skip the 2 hour wait on TSMM, and Star Tours is closed for refurb, and you start thinking your park days are better spent elsewhere. Does that make sense? That's the vibe I'm getting. And that's what I'm hearing from my suburbia friends. They don't care if the parks are cheaper if you visit them more days; some spots are a waste of their vacation time and daily $$. Spirit is right I think - most folks go for the parks. Very few have visited so often that they are interested in foregoing park time for golf/boat rentals/etc. Heck, not many folks will even sacrifice a day for the Water Parks which are terrific. Especially since big, themed water parks are springing up all over the country and most folks live near enough one to indulge on shorter, less expensive vacations. When folks hit Florida, it's for the big guns!! Parks! Great Parks! And if WDW only offers 2(ish), then folks are more than happy to venture forth to find a SW or Uni or Legoland. The way I see it, Disney succeeded with the whole MYW & Magical Express. But then they took it for granted and relaxed and blew it. You still have to offer the core experience that drives the business - Parks! And if you insist on milking the autographs/M&G/princess thing for every possible penny, it works to a degree. My kiddo liked that. But now I have a 12 year old and he want's more! We've met everyone, have their autographs, whatever. Still fun to a degree, but we need MORE! I do think the tide is turning. And far faster than I (or Disney!) expected. We're (people in general) slow to change, but then the tide swells and - bam - change! It's getting over the initial hump to break us out of our boxes. And HP did that. I worried for awhile that it was just me feeling disappointed with Disney. But just look at any facebook page and all the comments of distant acquaintances. Folks are loving Uni and SW. And once you lose the crown, there is no going back. The good faith of reputation and nostalgia are gone. And now you need to compete like any other business. So short sighted. Didn't have to be this way....
Originally Posted By Christi22222 Oh my gosh, just stared typing and ended up with an essay! My apoligies, as I know the essays are hard to follow on discussion boards. But I apparently had something to say!
Originally Posted By HMButler79 With an attraction where a landmark, hyped AA hasn;t worked in FOUR Years. FX turned off in Dinosaur and.....Chester and Hesters. NEXT!
Originally Posted By FerretAfros I totally agree with what you said, Christi. I had never conciously connected the decline to Disney's Magical Express, but the timeline does seem to work out a little too nicely to ignore. By literally trapping folks on property, they have no other option but to stay there. >>The good faith of reputation and nostalgia are gone. And now you need to compete like any other business. So short sighted.<< I think this is what everything that we've been talking about for years boils down to. And it seems like Disney still hasn't figured it out. They need to compete on a long-term basis, but nothing they've added in close to a decade can be said to really give an experience you can't find anywhere else. The last attraction that opened with a lot of hype was Mission:Space, and that turned out to be a bust. There have been painfully few additions since then (Soarin, new Canada movie using the old clips, MILF, Everest, TSMM, refurbs on HOP and Space), and most of them haven't been terribly noteworthy. The marketing pushes the brand, but that's not the reason people keep coming back. It's because they had an experience you can't get anywhere else. In a combination of Disney slipping and the rest of the entertainment industry stepping up, they've lost a lot. As Dave said in another thread, they've lost their visison, and it's really starting to show.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper <<Well, my info is that Potter Phase II has been approved and will be large and include two more signature attractions, plus UNI will be adding two majors at the old park, including the Transformers ride going into Hollywood and Singapore ... and a water park is happening too. Oh, and those Marvel characters that Disney paid $4 billion for? They're going to help keep guests flowing through IOA's gates as well. Yeah, I kinda think Disney's redo of Star Tours, no matter how good, just doesn't match up to that. But look at those amazing hotels and timeshares ... and let's not forget the absurd waste of money on interactive queues (might do a thread on them) ... and how do you celebrate a milestone 40th anniversary? Yep ... a D23 whorefest for drooling fanbois and bloggers and lots of retro merchandise to remind you that WDW truly didn't always suck this much. But the big thing is UNI is just gotten to the point where they are looking to truly battle Disney with substance and quality and respect for guests ... and having a 'wittle' announcement the day before the bloggers and OCD fanbois go to TPFKaTD-MGMS and blather on about how MAGICal it is, well that is UNI throwing down the gauntlet.>> Sounds like exactly what I was hearing, though I hadn't heard about Transformers. Thanks for the info, Spirit. I would love to see the faces of everyone who said Harry Potter wouldn't change anything with UNiversal on May 19th.
Originally Posted By SeventyOne <I totally agree with what you said, Christi. I had never conciously connected the decline to Disney's Magical Express, but the timeline does seem to work out a little too nicely to ignore. By literally trapping folks on property, they have no other option but to stay there.> More or less coincides with the pushing of DDP/"free dining", as well. Same idea.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<I think you are way off on that one. It is nothing like a Gravitron. On that ride you definitely felt the spinning motion. Not so on Mission Space.>> I don't know about you, but I can definitely tell when the ride starts spinning. Be that as it may, my comparison to the Gravitron may have contained a little bit of hyperbole, but I still don't think that attraction is a worthy successor to what was there before - and as such, I've never been able to fully enjoy Mission Space. Perhaps if they has added the attraction to EPCOT instead of replacing one of Disney's most elaborate/longest dark rides with it, I may have enjoyed it more. But for me, it will always be another example of the declining quality of EPCOT's Future World. In the span of about 5 years, Disney replaced 3 of the greatest dark rides at EPCOT with mediocre replacements that weren't as elaborate as what replaced them - and I've always felt that was a crime. Those rides may have cost Disney millions of dollars, but if you ask me, they just didn't get their money's worth out of WDI on those efforts.
Originally Posted By Bolna << The way I see it, Disney succeeded with the whole MYW & Magical Express. But then they took it for granted and relaxed and blew it.>> A very good point (and I did not mind the lengthy essay, it was very intersting!). I think ME and MYW might have been the very reason why Universal had to try so hard to become better. Because Disney was so successful at keeping people on their property Universal had to create something that will make people want to leave the Disney bubble. I think Universal is doing a very good job in that regard. I never read about so many people including a few days at Universal (and enjoying their time there) in their Orlando vacation. And I am very excited about my upcoming first visit there as well. And on the resort/space debate: Might it not be possible that some people actually prefer the more compact layout of Universal? If the parks are your main focus, it would be much nicer to be able to have both parks within easy reach of your hotel, not spread out over a large property. That's one reason why the Epcot area and monorail resorts are so popular, people like being close to the parks.
