Originally Posted By Princessjenn5795 The problem is she did not even know that she had some male organs until she was made to take some tests. Then, within about a day of being told the results, the media was reporting this all over her country. She did nothing wrong and then had some pretty shocking and very personal news spread world wide. She is now apparently refusing to leave her house or talk to anyone outside of her family. I feel very bad for her. Especially because it would be hard to say if simply having male organs in addition to female organs would really enhance her performance all that much.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad <<< Especially because it would be hard to say if simply having male organs in addition to female organs would really enhance her performance all that much.>>> She didn't just break the world record, she shattered it by something like 4 seconds...where in the past, breaking the record meant a few 100ths of a second faster. This is the reason for the testing. It makes all that much difference. I am glad I am not the one that has to make the decision on her future competitions, if there are any. I honsetly don't see a solution at all.
Originally Posted By Mr X Bolt and Phelps have been shattering world records for many months now, what's your point?
Originally Posted By Mr X "Phelps has collected three gold medals and two world records thus far in the competition. He swam the 200-meter freestyle in 1:43.86 and the 200 fly in 1:52.09. In the butterfly, he crushed the competition with a margin of 3.04 seconds." <a href="http://www.newser.com/story/892/phelps-shatters-butterfly-record.html" target="_blank">http://www.newser.com/story/89...ord.html</a> Maybe we should have him tested. *shrug*
Originally Posted By DVC_dad And anyway, where does she compete? Women or men? What would your call be X? The reason for the testing is because her success as a sprinter is so far above a reasonable difference. It would be like a relatively new rookie coming into the NFL, being completely unstoppable and shattering every rushing record that has ever been. It would be like Dash, from the Incredibles being able to compete at full speed. I don't think you really understand the extreme margin of victory here. I am not saying that she shouldn't compete. I actually agree with the asessment made earlier that the world is NOT always black and white. This is a great example.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad he crushed the competition with a margin of 3.04 seconds." Shurg by all means, you still don't get it.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***What would your call be X?*** If she was born with a vagina? I'd let her compete with the women, and leave her the hell alone about it. Nobody screams "UNFAIR!" about Shaquille O'Neil being taller and bigger than everyone else in basketball, do they?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***he crushed the competition with a margin of 3.04 seconds." Shurg by all means, you still don't get it.*** What's not to get? You claimed these things only happen in 100ths of a second, I pointed out that he crushed the entire field by OVER 3 seconds. What didn't I get?
Originally Posted By Mr X There's also another article about him beating his OWN personal world record by over a second, and we've seen Bolt shatter world records without even running the whole bloody race full out, so your claim is specious at best.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad It's all about the rate of improvement. How long has Phelps been training? I don't even know why I am arguing. What is it that I am arguing? I don't even know. I guess I am arguing that the gender testing was warranted. But really, was it? Is it? Hummm.... I don't know.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad And by the by, your example of Shaq is completely relevant. I concede. You're right. It's shaky ground all the way, the whole thing. I am glad it's not me that has to make any decision on this. I couldn't do it. I couldn't tell her that she can't compete or that she can.
Originally Posted By Mr X I'm sorry if I came at you a little aggressively there, DVC, but I've read others who are saying that very thing (that she should be banned forever, have her medals taken away, etc...), so I'm a little edgy on this subject myself. Sorry. But yes, it is a complicated situation.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Well you know, bottom line, she has NOT cheated in any way shape or form. I mean, what do you do? You can't take stuff away. That would be completely unfair.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I really feel sorry for her. I wonder what she must be feeling and going through right now, and under so much public scrutiny. Poor woman.
Originally Posted By barboy ///Nobody screams "UNFAIR!" about Shaquille O'Neil being taller and bigger than everyone else in basketball, do they?/// Of course not..... why would anybody do that---- Shaq is clearly a male competing against other males. I don't find, in this context, an oversized Shaq comparable to the Caster gender issue. What makes this an issue is that there is a prevailing underlying assumption that males have an edge over females in many ESPN type activities except for events like dart throwing, poker, golf, horse or car racing. But even golf is separated by gender so running the 800 meter event would demand far more physical endurance, raw speed and body strength(attributes more closely associated with the male physique). What makes this an issue also is that as of now Caster's gender remains ambiguous. And if Caster's gender is truly mixed I feel there is no fair way to treat Caster or the other competitors. Stripping accolades would be cruel and unfair(unless Caster is indeed male).
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Of course not..... why would anybody do that---- Shaq is clearly a male competing against other males. I don't find, in this context, an oversized Shaq comparable to the Caster gender issue.*** It has nothing to do with gender, the issue at hand is genetic advantage (the claim is that her body produces more testosterone than "average", which is still miles below what a male body produces and within the "accepted limits" of women...in other words there have been women competitors in the past who've had high levels, how could that not be right?). She has a gender condition whereby she possesses both male and female attributes. It's entirely up to her to decide how she wants to present herself to the world and nobody elses business. In fact, it's obnoxious that such a conversation even has to occur...is there NO sympathy in this world? Besides, it's freakin SPORTS people. Good lord, so this poor person who otherwise could've ended up in a FREAKSHOW in times gone by actually excels at something, and we want to consider how to ban her? Obnoxious (not any comment makers here, I mean just the very notion).
Originally Posted By barboy ///It has nothing to do with gender/// I don't know why you say that when clearly that is what made this story take off. Caster's gender is in question irrespective of her testosterone levels. ///the issue at hand is genetic advantage/// Not really, if Caster were female with the highest concentration of testosterone ever recorded then she is eligible for female competition. And, conversely, if Caster were male with extremely high levels of estrogen then he would be ineligible for female competition. ///It's entirely up to her to decide how she wants to present herself to the world and nobody elses business./// No, because if Caster competes in an event like the 800 meter dash then gender becomes the business of those involved in the meet. If Caster were an insurance broker or electrician then you're right..... it's up to Caster to decide how she wants to present herself. ///Besides, it's freakin SPORTS people./// X, I find that passage very curious. To you and me it's 'just sports'. Sports and especially athletes mean so little to me. I wouldn't care in the slightest if Wayne Gretsky hit 75 homeruns or if the St Louis 49's win the Kentucky Derby. But to those involved in what I deem uninteresting and unimportant events(sports) it is their livlihood ---competition and the spoils of winning mean just about everything to those who compete. And since Caster's win affects the rest of the field and ultimately their livlihood gender(eligibility) becomes relevant.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 This thread has completely devolved from its original point, which was about a man who was sentenced to be chemically castrasted in England in the 1950's for being gay.
