Originally Posted By RoadTrip Minnesota has excellent public schools. I don't know that vouchers and breaking up teacher's unions would really accomplish that much. Minnesota has open enrollment... any student can enroll in a school in any district if they can provide their own transportation to the school. We also have a fair number of "Charter Schools" in the central cities providing a public alternative to the usual public schools. Lastly, although we do not have vouchers, tuition paid to private schools is tax deductible. Once again, liberals provide REAL solutions to our problems… not the standard solutions of talk radio.
Originally Posted By woody >>I don't know that vouchers and breaking up teacher's unions would really accomplish that much.<< You don't understand the power they have especially in California. >>Minnesota has open enrollment... any student can enroll in a school in any district if they can provide their own transportation to the school.<< Good idea, but probably not feasible in Los Angeles school district. >>Lastly, although we do not have vouchers, tuition paid to private schools is tax deductible.<< Excellent idea. >>Once again, liberals provide REAL solutions to our problems… not the standard solutions of talk radio.<< Minnesota has a solution. Unfortunately, other places need different solutions. Liberal? Minnesota is under Republican control with Republican government and majority in House. You gotta stop citing "talk radio" as the discrediting source for vouchers and teachers unions. It is so unoriginal!!!
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>You gotta stop citing "talk radio" as the discrediting source for vouchers and teachers unions. It is so unoriginal!!!<< Truth often is.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <The Public School system is in VERY GOOOD shape in most places, and would be even better if bashers like you would get off your butts and do something to help like vbdad. Oh no... let's make like a bunch of Reverend Jim Jones clones and do home schooling. That sounds like a good idea to me. Drink the Kool Aid baby… drink the Kool Aid… < RT - you answered it better than I could have myself. The public schools in my area are better than the private schools and far from broken. Some would like to have you believe they are all broken to privatize the systems
Originally Posted By woody >>Some would like to have you believe they are all broken to privatize the systems<< Some would use the "A-L-L broken" to distract from the argument. Nice try.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 Like I said, vbdad55 just wanted to shut down my argument I believe you were the one who veered off the road as being more worried about syntax than content, therefore you are the one who derailed the discussion. <Can we move on? I already have, but you are the one who wanted to turn this into English 201. >FYI, I'm not an english major. I'm never good at english. Maybe we have something in common We have little in common, and the pathetic continuous attepmts at snide remarks referencing your view of my qualifications shows maybe the nerve you hit was your own.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <>>Some would like to have you believe they are all broken to privatize the systems<< Some would use the "A-L-L broken" to distract from the argument. Nice try.< by showing they are not all broken, it also shows they can work.
Originally Posted By woody >>I believe you were the one who veered off the road as being more worried about syntax than content, therefore you are the one who derailed the discussion.<< Like I said, you wanted to shut down my argument rather than argue my points. Your background has no bearing on the arguments about NCLB policy. I slammed you about your syntax because you acted high and mightly while hardly capable of explaining your points. >>We have little in common, and the pathetic continuous attepmts at snide remarks referencing your view of my qualifications shows maybe the nerve you hit was your own.<< I'm getting more and more impatient with your attempt at diversion. Your qualifications are no interest to me.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Liberal? Minnesota is under Republican control with Republican government and majority in House.>> Pawlenty is the first Republican Governor in a LONG time. The Republicans have also controlled the house only recently. But I would have been more accurate had I said MODERATES provide REAL solutions to our problems. Minnesota politicians, regardless of political party, tend to be moderates. That is why Pawlenty can win in a traditionally DFL (Democrat Farmer/Labor – a Minnesota thing) state and why I plan to vote for him -- he is a Republican, but he is a MODERATE Republican.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Like I said, you wanted to shut down my argument rather than argue my points. Your background has no bearing on the arguments about NCLB policy. I slammed you about your syntax because you acted high and mightly while hardly capable of explaining your points. < No one wants to shut down your arguments, as I find it is better to let people like you talk, as the message usually gets clearer. As for high and mighty, you seem to feel no qualifications are better than many, just like your friend Beau who believes college educations are a waste of time. It's your opinion and you are welcome to it, I'll let the others here decide. Your discussion of syntax was your deliberate way to try and discredit my thoughts and opinions. The tactic is not new, and still is not effective. So rant on, no one is stopping you. <I'm getting more and more impatient with your attempt at diversion. Your qualifications are no interest to me.< Like I care about your impatience. I would also expect qualifications or facts would never get in the way of your discussion points. Just like Beau on another thread who steps out and claims Wal Mart is paying people $13 / hr - $17/ hr to start, but when called on it changes the subject, then gets impatient and goes off also, feel free to be upset. Just like your answers to RT, you don't want discourse on topics, you want to be able to dictate. No one is buying that every response is a distraction.
Originally Posted By jonvn I've found it interesting here that some people, whom I've felt were quite disturbed at other posting sites and discussions, come here and also post in a disturbed and defective manner. It's funny, and I'm not the least bit surprised by some of what I see here. There are simply some individuals here who are basically nuts. I really don't see much use in responding to them, because they have plainly obvious emotional problems. We really need to simply stop responding to the nuts. This thread was about a book that I saw, and thought would be interesting. I'm now going to actually comment on the subject, instead of reading more insanity from the nut crowd: The thing to do for the middle class is to not give up, which seems what most people are doing, but instead, get actually more involved, and become active in the party that has a chance to counter a lot of what has gone on in the last few years. The thing is that the Democrat party is the only choice for that right now. But it is currently run by people who just are so out of it, or so in tune with a fragmented set of special interests who care nothing about any other special interest that they can move in no direction. The Democrat party has to move to one where they are going to do the most good for the most people, as much as possible. They need to be populist, and they need to be protective of the people who live here. They need to have as their goal a better life for everyone, not just certain people, and they need to stop whining about how bad Bush is, and come up with some concrete reasons as to why they are better. This is not going to happen right now. But what does need to happen is that people slowly need to get into the party who have these ideals, and in a few years, take over more and more of it. The neocons did not take over the Republicans overnight. It took maybe 15 to 20 years, starting in the early 70s and running into the 90s. The "Republican Revolution" was when the deal was sealed, and we've been sinking fast ever since. Simply put, the people running the Democrats are just not able to provide the sort of leadership that is necessary for a revitalization of this country, and perhaps don't even understand what they need to do. They are so busy being PC and with trying to please everyone, they please no one. Whom they have to try and cater to is the great middle class. The average person, who simply wants a job, a house, and nice family life. No one is talking to these people. I was speaking with someone from Michigan the other day. They told me they were filing for bankruptcy. I said really? Why? They said "Everyone in Michigan is going bankrupt." No jobs, no prospects, and a government run by two political parties who are utterly disinterested in helping anyone but themselves make more money. If the country is going to survive, that has to change.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <The public schools around here are pretty good, too. < geez, how can that be, they're all broken you know
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <I've found it interesting here that some people, whom I've felt were quite disturbed at other posting sites and discussions, come here and also post in a disturbed and defective manner. It's funny, and I'm not the least bit surprised by some of what I see here. There are simply some individuals here who are basically nuts. I really don't see much use in responding to them, because they have plainly obvious emotional problems. We really need to simply stop responding to the nuts. This thread was about a book that I saw, and thought would be interesting. I'm now going to actually comment on the subject, instead of reading more insanity from the nut crowd:< agreed -- and some of us do appreciate it -- as I stated I ordered the book from Amazon after being initially not interested, but some insight peaked my curiosity so I am going to give it a read. Once English class let out, there actually was some decent dialog...but the shout downs nake it difficult to get through. Somehow we have to get through this period of us vs. them in this country in order to move forward but it will take time. As yo so accurately stated, the GOP didn't practice inclusion of the far right overnight - it was a long process, and the same goes for the far left in the Dem party. They serve no one except themselves as opposed to the greater good. People can disagree and still get things accomplished. <Whom they have to try and cater to is the great middle class. The average person, who simply wants a job, a house, and nice family life. No one is talking to these people.< No, they are not being talked to, but they are being shouted at by both wings. "Get off the fence, you're always confused" <I was speaking with someone from Michigan the other day. They told me they were filing for bankruptcy. I said really? Why? They said "Everyone in Michigan is going bankrupt." No jobs, no prospects, and a government run by two political parties who are utterly disinterested in helping anyone but themselves make more money. < One of my best friends owns a Mortgage Brokerage Cpmany that is in 27 states. The states with the highest default rates right now in the country are not on the coasts, but middle America; Iowa, Illinois & Ohio. They must be inhabited by stupid people from what we're told by some as there is this cornucopia of high paying jobs just waiting for them. Heck they can make $35,000 a year to start at WalMart. There is hope jonvn. Let's look at conversations we've had, yet knowing there is at least one major issue we couldn't be more different on, yet the discussions can be civil. There is hope as shown by a number of posters here as a small microcosm ( I feel) of the voting populace at large.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>We really need to simply stop responding to the nuts. << Make the Pledge!
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>One of my best friends owns a Mortgage Brokerage Cpmany that is in 27 states. The states with the highest default rates right now in the country are not on the coasts, but middle America; Iowa, Illinois & Ohio.<< The dam is starting to burst. Foreclosures are up 53% from a year ago: <a href="http://money.cnn.com/2006/09/13/real_estate/foreclosures_spiking/index.htm?postversion=2006091310" target="_blank">http://money.cnn.com/2006/09/1 3/real_estate/foreclosures_spiking/index.htm?postversion=2006091310</a>
Originally Posted By Dabob2 >>No, it reveals you for who you are. As several people noted.<< <I still don't know what I'm revealed to be?> Someone who feels the interests of the poor and the middle class don't intersect. Those are your words. >>First of all, I didn't realize ALL poor people and ALL middle class people always wanted the same things. I suppose in a black and white world they do.<< <It would because that's the class warfare political slogans being paraded around. Have you been listening?> The only class warfare I've read in this thread came from you. See above. >>Second, most middle class people (this shown by polls) favor tax breaks for themselves, but favor restoring the tax rates for the upper 5% of Americans back to where it was in the 90's.<< <You've just talked about .... "generalizations". Give me a break. See next stupid comment.> It's not a generalization, it's a statement based on polls. A majority of middle class Americans favor restoring the top tax rates to where they were in the 90's. Simple fact. >>More generalizations. Some public schools are quite good, and some other government services are as well. Some suck.<< <Most suck!!!> No. Several people have chimed in to say that most in their area are good, and they live in different areas of the country. Most of my friends have kids in yet another area of the country (NY/NJ), and only one couple I know is dissatisfied with their schools. <And most don't even reflect conservative values. That's even worse.> I don't think schools should "reflect conservative values" or liberal ones either. They should teach kids the 3 R's, history, science, etc. Perhaps you see some liberal conspiracy in teaching evolution or something, but you're showing your views to be quite skewed in general. >> I am middle class and have been all my life. And I don't see poor people as my enemy or those whose interests are in opposition to mine. I see them as fellow Americans, rather than a group that should be "against" me. Isn't that more of a "uniter, not a divider" attitude than yours?<< <Wow. Imagine that. Putting words into my mouth.> I did no such thing. I said what I believed. <I was speaking about middle class interests that are unique from the poor. If that is "dividing", then we really won't solve problems, will we?> Road Trip gave several great examples of the interests of poor people and middle class people coinciding. I'd say they do more often than not. You said that the interests of the middle class and the poor did not intersect. Period. That's a). not true, and b). divisive. Sure, the middle class has some issues that are unique to it. That doesn't mean their interests and those of the poor never intersect, as you said.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <This is not going to happen right now. But what does need to happen is that people slowly need to get into the party who have these ideals, and in a few years, take over more and more of it.> Getting back on topic, this does sound like an interesting book. Could be worth a read.
Originally Posted By jonvn "They should teach kids the 3 R's, history, science, etc." They should really teach the kids geography, too. And art and music. Those three things really help round out a person.
