Originally Posted By Mickeymouseclub Okay let's practice an online complaint that actually stays focused. So everybody gets to list one specific problem described briefly but effectively,include date,location. If we could do that much then we could organize it into specific parks,waterparks or hotels or modes of transportation, restaurants,character meetngreets,. Sample: I would like to report a problem: Date Location Description Does this help as a beginning for us? Does anybody have ideas that should also be included? Is it necessary to include our names?
Originally Posted By Lee hisownself Good. I'm really glad I'm not the only one who has reached the fed-up point and wants to see dome changes. That's why I wrote that semi-ranting blog about the Yeti last year, which then led to the article in the Sentinal. Neither earned me any new friends at TDO, but they did manage to drag at least that one issue kicking and screaming into the light. True...nothing has changed yet...but at least it's a start.
Originally Posted By Lee hisownself Damn. That should read "some changes". Let's start a collection to buy LP an edit button.
Originally Posted By GOB To be fair, Magic is far from being all fairies and pixie dust. It's no LaughingPlace, but look at what Steve has been posting lately and you'll see that he isn't exactly cheering Disney on, and in that respect, I'm glad that his site hasn't been credentialed. It's still not completely objective, but I think that the perception that Magic is overtly "MAGICAL" is largely incorrect, from someone like me that has been reading the board for years. (Moreover, I find that sites (not LaughingPlace) that tend to be overtly "negative" have a tremendously hostile environment that makes participating in a community less than pleasant.) Either way, I'm glad that some sort of documentation will be extant for Disney's poor maintenance on-and-off ride. At the very least, it will draw attention to the issue, and show folks who think everything is fine and dandy and magical that the state of the parks is far from that.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 I don't really like to take posts from other sites and comment here, but the well-respected poster Jake on MAGIC made the following comment and since I don't choose to post there, I felt like it still deserved some attention here (especially since the entire thread came from said other site). Jakeman sez:<<The only recommendation I can think to make is to remember that Disney is a business and they should be addressed as such. At the end of the day they aren't really going to care what Walt would have done. What they are going to care about is bad press and issues that will affect their bottom line.>> This is a GREAT point. Disney is a business today and no matter what type of great visionary and creative genius Walt was, he isn't relevant to TWDC as such today (beyond having his image used for everything from selling timeshares to cruises etc). The TDO 'leadership' team ONLY cares about bad press and their bottom line, so they should have to answer to things that will affect those in terms of their image, which will harm the bottom line. They shouldn't be treated any differently than one might treat BP, Burger King, Apple, Walmart or Starbucks to name five BRANDS. However this blog/grass-roots fan movement takes off, Disney will NOT be happy. They want to hear that all is MAGICal, all the time. That's why they're working so hard to control as much of the fan community through social media as they can. <<Also, I think you need to be very protective of the content and not let the website get hijacked by some of the more "passionate" members of the fan base. The last thing I think would be productive would be quasi-offensive cliches and over used buzzwords.>> You mean like the exact ones that TWDC has come to rely on until they have no meaning? The ones that have degraded the product and devalued the BRAND? Words like Wishes, Dreams and MAGIC? Those words ...? Or do you mean things such as calling the resort The Walmarted World of Disney? Because, folks who understand BRANDING and understand how you truly gain attention in the power suites of Disney or any other major corporation, understand that's exactly how you DO get attention. You don't get it by being quiet, polite, passive (or in some fanbois' cases, passive aggressive), cordial and/or couched. You do it, if you REALLY want to succeed, by following the Al Lutz 'the early years' model. You are loud, vocal, most definitely passionate and, most importantly, accurate. You take a few shots too! I sense this great desire by some of you guys/gals to be 'nice' and there's no way you can be and achieve your goals here, unless your goals are simply to move in on the Disney Social Media Lifestyle and get some notice. That isn't the way to bring about change. <<If either of those show up I would think that Disney would be more apt to dismiss the webpage as just another fan boy's whine, rather than a logical critique of the shortcomings of their current business model.>> I don't believe anyone should waste their time (beyond these type of discussion forums) in critiquing Disney's business models. Things should stay focused on the matters at hand. If attractions are falling apart, then that's what should be showcased. Let the evidence speak for itself. Pictures do speak louder than words (unless they are 432 pics of construction walls and/or scrims) ... no one needs to write very much if the pics do their job. Disney won't take action, at first ... but once a few well-positioned folks see things, they'll have no choice but to respond, and you'll likely see some of these things fixed. But that won't happen with a namby-pamby approach that lauds Disney for all it's doing right (not a great deal in FLA these days) and is afraid to simply present the honest ugly truth and demand that management is held accountable. But great points to my old buddy, Jake ... who I'd love to see here in the LP (not trying to poach posters, though!)
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<oh '74 how I've missed your level headedness over on Magic.>> Thanks, devoy. I try and check in over there and read. I just don't wish to post when entire threads disappear for no good reason. There are some wonderful folks over there, including some good pals. One, who I'm still waiting to hear about his first visit to DLP! <<I get what you're saying...Mickeymouseclub said it in a bit more positive tone though. Give us a bit to get going, we have good ideas, and if we get the write people to contribute (and we'd be more than willing to have your help and input as well) we could get something going here. We ourselves might not necessarily have the clout needed to make a change, but it doesn't mean we can't spark the interest of someone who does. All we can do right now at this point is spread the word.>> Well, the word must be getting out. Kevin Yee documented this sorry situation last week. And John Frost did so this week and now it's getting attention on MAGIC, on Micechat and here (and other places, I am sure). If you want input feel free to ask either in a post here or you can PM on MAGIC. I absolutely believe that the simplest approach is the best here. Pictures tell the story. Even though I love words and love writing, I think in this case, it really is about pictures (or if you're Disney, the images). At least at first. Focusing on that will keep you from derailing where someone wants to move into a different direction entirely. But I'd also caution that WDW is HUGE and there are issues at the water parks, DD and resorts too. And since Disney makes more money on hotels stays and timeshare sales than tickets to EPCOT, you'd be very remiss in NOT touching upon the issues at those places too. Other than hotel construction pics, the resorts are generally ignored (even all the GREAT stuff) by the fan community and they shouldn't be as they're part of what makes WDW so special and, at the same time, causes so many issues too. <<The nice thing about the internet and our current ties to Magic is we might be able to wake up some of those starry-eyed pixie lovers that frequent the site and get some of those casual parkgoers to see that there actually is a problem instead of thinking we're crazy for complaining about light bulbs... >> Anyone who thinks realistic critics are moaning about lighbulbs need to have their heads examined. That's a very dismissive way of dealing with people who see legit problems. And it's kind of absurd when you think that it came from the whole Disney detail of replacing bulbs before they could ever burn out. Bulbs are the least of WDW's issues ...
Originally Posted By njDizfan Spirit, thanks for all your input. It was well received. I'm going to email you to ask some specific questions.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper After thinking about this a bit, there's a few things that need to happen if this is to be successful. If it's a blog, make sure the bloggers think their articles out and make sure they know what the hell they are talking about. If the blogs are nothing but fanbois spouting their heads off about something, it's just going to be dismissed. Also, the focus should be the declining maintenance, food, and entertainment standards at the park. I think constantly raging about things like cartoon characters and EPCOT Center will make it seem like a site that is again, just a fanboy place to hate. Not saying the things should never be brought up, but I feel like talking about Horizons or how much someone hates Nemo in the Seas every other post will get pretty old pretty quickly.
Originally Posted By njDizfan I agree HS, our blog has needs to solely focus on the issues of maintenance. Nobody will subscribe to a diatribe about their hatred of TDO. We need real time photos and educated analysis. Certainly an uphill battle but worth a shot.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper I look forward to what you guys put together, and would definitely be interested in writing if need be.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I agree HS, our blog has needs to solely focus on the issues of maintenance. Nobody will subscribe to a diatribe about their hatred of TDO. We need real time photos and educated analysis. Certainly an uphill battle but worth a shot.>> As I've said (and I did get your email and will respond either later tonight or tomorrow), in order to truly muster support and garner mainstream coverage and attention in TDO and Burbank, you NEED a personality. I am going to say this as gently as I can, but I don't see that Lutzian dude in your ranks. And that isn't really a knock. It takes a special kind of person, and most simply aren't up to it. Kevin Yee does some wonderful work, but he doesn't have that bulldog personality that you need to have someone sit up and take notice. Since you don't have that, you have to keep the focus on the issues. Don't even discuss 'hatred of TDO' because that's inane and fanboi vs. fanboi drivel that gets you nowhere fast. TDO clearly has issues in managing and maintaining WDW. If they didn't, then this wouldn't even be an issue. So, there's no need to point that out and engage in finger-pointing. TDO runs WDW. It's responsible. Period. What needs to be focused on would be things that are amiss. We know how bad Splash Mountain is, so show it, document it all in living high-res color. CoP? BTMRR? Dinosaur? Even Disco Yeti. I would even steer clear from editorializing. Be simple and to the point. We're fans. We love WDW. We KNOW WDW Co. wants to live up to the highest standards, standards that it set decades ago. Do these examples (and show and document everything, opinions are great, but facts are absolute) present the product that Disney wishes to showcase, sell and provide to the world-wide audience of guests AND (don't leave this out) potential guests? Stay away from personalities. Phil Holmes may be the anti-Christ, but who cares? Inoverherheadmeg may be so inept that even being a figurehead appears to be too much for her to handle. Stay away from comparing WDW to UNI or other Disney Resorts. Whether they are better, worse or equal doesn't matter. WDW wrote the book on ITS standards and IT is NOT following its own rules. Stay away from cost or real world economics. Whether a day at Disney costs $30 or $85 doesn't change the fact things aren't as they should be. Real world forces impact every business and every business hasn't opted to lower quality so substantially while still being hugely profitable. Finally, and absolutely, don't start with an impossible mission. Start small. Splash Mountain is a great place because it is a signature attraction, it is in pathetic condition and has been for years (and through multiple alleged rehabs). But trying to start out by covering every attraction at every park, every aspect of every resort ... well, that's a key to disaster and that's even if folks are sending you the material. You can't run everything and just bounce around. Also, realize that WDW does have SQS CMs (or so I've been told), but the question is how qualified they are and what power they have (basically none). So many attractions have so many effects not working that many have simply forgotten (if they ever knew) they existed. And running things in 99.9% condition is absolutely not a pie in the sky dream or impossible. WDW used to come very close. And TDR does right now. Just some thoughts ...
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer ^ Oh, why don't YOU do it, Spirit....? (Yes, I know the answer to this, and yes, everyone else is thinking it, so why not post it!? LOL)
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 <<BOYCOTT WILL FORCE RESULTS.>> And the boycott will come from a small percentage of Disney geeks on the internet which will amount to nothing and not affect Disney in anyway.
Originally Posted By KevinYee Splash and Thunder looked much improved this weekend. Was it the online fan focus? Maybe. Could just have easily been the visit by Iger and the Board, alas. BTW, I agree with the Spirited observations here - he's not insulting me or saying anything he didn't already say to my face. He may even be right that it takes a "bulldog" mentality to force change... but he's also right that I don't want that to be me. It has to be the right "fit" for a personality.
Originally Posted By HMButler79 i can vouch after 6 yrs that "managers" are STUPID. PERIOD. Thier title means as much as thier cheap business cards (no raised text for a company on the Dow?)
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>Splash and Thunder looked much improved this weekend. Was it the online fan focus? Maybe. Could just have easily been the visit by Iger and the Board, alas.<<<< Good to hear, regardless of the reasons.
Originally Posted By HMButler79 ""And the boycott will come from a small percentage of Disney geeks on the internet which will amount to nothing and not affect Disney in anyway."" It sorta worked on the West Coast. Between the Light Magic, Rocket Rods, and closed Subs, attedance did go down at DL. Ditto the ghost town that was DCA. In Anaheim they DID swallow thier fan pride, voted thier wallets, and forced change along w/ Al's "Olberman" style attacks
Originally Posted By leemac <<Between the Light Magic, Rocket Rods, and closed Subs, attedance did go down at DL. >> I'd check the attendance estimates if I was you - attendance didn't factor into any of those three decisions. Magic was killed because management hated it (and it was certainly derided by many), RR failed due to 101 failures, capacity constraints and massive maintenance costs and the subs "reopening" was a need to bring capacity back to the park. People "voting with their pocketbooks" had nothing to do with any of those decisions.
Originally Posted By leemac The biggest strength of social media is also its biggest failure - the democratisation of the internet - everyone has a voice but it makes it harder to aggregate all of those voices into one unified message. I've no idea why it isn't possible - ego? I've always been amazed that there hasn't ever been one voice calling out WDW much like Lutz does on MiceAge. Granted it is a much bigger target with a highly disparate management structure (whereas Lutz gets all of his information with a handful of individuals that everyone knows are feeding him stuff) but it still amazes me.
Originally Posted By leobloom If you need anyone to critique the restrooms (a smelly job but someone's gotta do it), I'm your man.
