WDW Social 'Media' and Conspiracy

Originally Posted By skinnerbox

<<The bizarre thing is there are folks who try and do things the right way and get shot down. I have a friend (really ... not talking about me because I wouldn't ask) who is an amazing photographer and has taken some photos at DLR that she'd like to turn into postcards or other such art ... not talking about things like the castle either. I'm talking about maybe a flower bed on Main Street where 99% of people would never even know it was taken there.

She went to numerous different people at TWDC, including the same publicity whores who deal with folks like these tour 'guides', and was basically told 'No, you can't use that image. We hold all the rights. If you do there's a good chance you'll face legal action.'>>

Really?

Then can someone please explain to me how folks like Jeff Lange can sell DVDs of video they've taken inside the parks without Disney demanding they stop?

 

Originally Posted By MPierce

Greed filled Dalmatians.

 

Originally Posted By MPierce

Oh so close.

 

Originally Posted By MousDad

This is nothing new. A guy named Tour Guide Mike (a former WDW Disney VIP tour guide) has openly been selling such high priced, escorted tours for years.

Jim Hill got kicked out for telling derogatory, backstage stories while giving his tour. I don't think it was for the actual act of giving the tour, per se.

 

Originally Posted By DlandDug

Just a clarification: Disney forbids ANY outside commercial activity of any kind on their property. Anything.

Disney also vigorously protects their copyrights, and anything that infringes on their well documented copyrights.

Reality, of course, is a bit messier. There have been any number of... creative (yeah, that's the ticket!)... individuals who have figured angles over the years to make money off the good will and reputation of the Walt Disney Company. "Tour Guides" have been around for some time. And how could the good folks at Disney know if this is a bought 'n paid for group, or just a Cousins Club following one of their members around?

The kiss of death is when money changes hands ON PROPERTY. (Or, as some of them call it, trading pins for fine steel engravings of US Presidents.) It's stupid, it's against the rules, and it will get you removed, and possibly banned for life.

As for the X-tinct Attractions on DVD crowd, it depends on whether they are worth going after or not. Anybody can, indeed, reproduce their own videos, for their own use, which may or may not include selling those copies to other folks. Just don;'t include any copyrighted material! And be darn sure you personally own that video, or have the express permission of the documented owner before you start reproducing DVDs and offering them on your website.

Images work pretty much the same way. You should be able to sell your own photo-- but if you ask a lawyer, and that lawyer represents the Happiest Place on Earth, they may convince you it's illegal.

I do know that you cannot reproduce and sell the images of others without their express permission. Charles Phoenix [<a href="http://www.charlesphoenix.com/" target="_blank">http://www.charlesphoenix.com/</a>] has amazing color images of Disneyland-- enough to fill a coffee table book. But just the few images he included in two other books (God Bless Americana and Southern Californialand) were such a headache that a special all-Disneyland book is unlikely to ever see the light of day.

So... how did Ape Pen Publishing [<a href="http://www.apepenpublishing.com/New_Main_Page.html" target="_blank">http://www.apepenpublishing.co...age.html</a>] get away with all those books filled with Disneyland images in black and white? Simple-- they own 'em. The publishers grand dad was the photographer, and every one has documented ownership.

In the end it's all up to the lawyers, and really, isn't that a comfort?

 

Originally Posted By DlandDug

As for all those bloggers and web site owners with their baskets of swag...

I really think that the internet is in it's formative years. Every other major media has had a wild 'n wooly period when there were no hard and fast rules, and folks sort of got away with whatever the market would bear. The New York Times used to carry advertisements for patent medicine that were indistinguishable from news stories. AM radio stations used to take payola from record companies. Prime time TV in the 1950s was filled with game shows in which contestants were given scripts, so that advertisers could entice more viewers with the "drama" of the competition.

I really believe that one day we will look back at this era of internet "journalism" with the same incredulity-- amazed at how these things were conducted.

 

Originally Posted By Spirit of 74

>> I'm seriously thinking it might be time to set up my own Disney retail outlet (we'll call it 'Plush and Gush by Winky') on Main Street. <<

<<You'll be locked in a copyright infridgement battle. Winky has exclusive use of his name when connected to anything Disney! It'll cost you 20% off the top for exclusive use of the name.>>

Nope. You get nothing ... maybe Winky pellets.

I am an American.

I am an online Disney personality and I can steal whatever I choose.

Be good and I'll save you some pixie dust and give you a Disney pin!

 

Originally Posted By Spirit of 74

<<Really?>>

Yes. Really. True story. And I fully intend to let said friend see this thread and then tell her she's an idiot if she doesn't make money off her images, whether they were taken at DLR or not and whether Disney publicity hacks like it or not.

<<Then can someone please explain to me how folks like Jeff Lange can sell DVDs of video they've taken inside the parks without Disney demanding they stop?>>

I've been asked to not comment directly about the individual in question.

So, I'll just speak in general ... and my feeling is Disney allows certain folks to get away with profiteering off the Mouse's intellectual property and copyrights so long as there's a quid pro quo.

I also believe that Burbank doesn't have a clue what some of their P&R folks are allowing and/or getting into bed with.

 

Originally Posted By Spirit of 74

<<This is nothing new. A guy named Tour Guide Mike (a former WDW Disney VIP tour guide) has openly been selling such high priced, escorted tours for years.>>

Never heard of him prior to today (now yesterday). The fact people are doing doesn't make it right.

<<Jim Hill got kicked out for telling derogatory, backstage stories while giving his tour. I don't think it was for the actual act of giving the tour, per se.>>

I don't believe that for a second. From what I've gathered (and Jim can certainly chime in here, although I get the idea he wants to whore for Disney bigtime now), Jim never got a chance to tell any stories. And how would Disney even know? How can Disney possibly control/regulate these people? That's what allowing select folks to give tours opens up.

I have stood in parks with friends telling the kind of stories about Disney execs and WDI that most fanbois would wet themselves to hear because you won't hear them elsewhere. No one has come up to me and suggested that Disney can control conversation topics in its parks provided they don't disrupt park operation or harm other guests.

This really is bizarre to a ridiculous degree.

Just talked to a Disney pal and figure that I could easily get 10 people a day to pay me $100 for a Spirited tour of a WDW park ... 10 days of 'work' and I got 10 grand clear and can head to Alaska for the summer like I want.

Now ... do you think Disney is going to allow that? Or are they going to suddenly swoop down on me as soon as my group meets in front of the Partners statue?

We both know the answer.

If word ever got out that I was hosting anything at MK or EPCOT or 'the other parks', I wouldn't get a chance to discuss anything.

Disney is endorsing the people they are allowing to break the rules ... or, to be more precise, certain publicity hacks and park execs in Orlando are allowing people to break rules and policies in order to advance their own agendas and careers within the company.

It's time they lose their jobs too.

I hear McDonald's is hiring.

 

Originally Posted By Spirit of 74

<<Just a clarification: Disney forbids ANY outside commercial activity of any kind on their property. Anything.

Disney also vigorously protects their copyrights, and anything that infringes on their well documented copyrights.

Reality, of course, is a bit messier. There have been any number of... creative (yeah, that's the ticket!)... individuals who have figured angles over the years to make money off the good will and reputation of the Walt Disney Company. "Tour Guides" have been around for some time. And how could the good folks at Disney know if this is a bought 'n paid for group, or just a Cousins Club following one of their members around?>>

I would think when these people ADVERTISE exactly what they're doing on websites and podcasts that everyone damn well knows they are operating a for profit business and not taking family members on a tour of the World Showcase.

Disney, or TDO/WDW Social Media, knows exactly who is doing what.

I have to admit that I am a fairly well connected and worldly Spirit. I have seen many things and experienced them. But this degree of whoring has taken me by surprise.

It's so brazen. So in your face.

And it's so antithetical to what the Disney Parks are about.

These people need to be shut down and the people who have allowed them to grow like mold in a FLA bathroom need to find employment elsewhere.

It really is disgusting and of great consequence to the Disney Brand ... unless you think these schemers should be the ones to spread the MAGIC.


<<The kiss of death is when money changes hands ON PROPERTY. (Or, as some of them call it, trading pins for fine steel engravings of US Presidents.) It's stupid, it's against the rules, and it will get you removed, and possibly banned for life.>>

Oh, I know. I once tried to GIVE two tickets (one day, not used) away at DLR. No $$$ involved. A female CM practically bolted through the ticket booth, scared the family away that I was trying to do a random act of kindness to and gave me a speech. I told her to have a MAGICal day and made a beeline out of the esplanade, gave the tix to a young couple and laughed later on when I saw some kids shoplift some crap in Tomorrowland.

This company has got some effed up priorties and business models.

<<As for the X-tinct Attractions on DVD crowd, it depends on whether they are worth going after or not. Anybody can, indeed, reproduce their own videos, for their own use, which may or may not include selling those copies to other folks. Just don;'t include any copyrighted material! And be darn sure you personally own that video, or have the express permission of the documented owner before you start reproducing DVDs and offering them on your website.>>

I think the video folks are in big trouble with the direction NEXTGEN is taking. While I don't think what they do, in all cases, is as bad as these tour whores, they still are selling Disney's IP/copyrights and keeping 100% of the profits. Maybe Disney should allow them to continue, but take 65-80% of the profits ... but I think with the desire to monetize prior park offerings that Disney will likely just send nasty legal letters telling the makers that it's time to get real jobs.

<<Images work pretty much the same way. You should be able to sell your own photo-- but if you ask a lawyer, and that lawyer represents the Happiest Place on Earth, they may convince you it's illegal.>>

I think that's fair ... to a point. If I take a picture of Mickey in front of the castle then I don't believe I have a right to profit off of it. But an artsy pic that could have been taken anywhere? I don't think Disney has any rights to that.


<<I do know that you cannot reproduce and sell the images of others without their express permission. Charles Phoenix [<a href="http://www.charlesphoenix.com/" target="_blank">http://www.charlesphoenix.com/</a>] has amazing color images of Disneyland-- enough to fill a coffee table book. But just the few images he included in two other books (God Bless Americana and Southern Californialand) were such a headache that a special all-Disneyland book is unlikely to ever see the light of day.

So... how did Ape Pen Publishing [<a href="http://www.apepenpublishing.co...age.html" target="_blank">http://www.apepenpublishing.co...age.html</a>] get away with all those books filled with Disneyland images in black and white? Simple-- they own 'em. The publishers grand dad was the photographer, and every one has documented ownership.

In the end it's all up to the lawyers, and really, isn't that a comfort?>>

I have come to believe the only good lawyer is a dead lawyer ;-)

But thanks (seriously!) for the thoughful post with lots of good info!

 

Originally Posted By MousDad

>>Never heard of him prior to today (now yesterday). The fact people are doing doesn't make it right.<<

Oh, I agree. I'm just saying if others have been getting away with it, no surprise Lou is.

>>I don't believe that for a second. From what I've gathered (and Jim can certainly chime in here, although I get the idea he wants to whore for Disney bigtime now), Jim never got a chance to tell any stories. And how would Disney even know? How can Disney possibly control/regulate these people? That's what allowing select folks to give tours opens up.<<

I can't remember where I read that from, Lutz maybe? I'm pretty sure, from what I read, that he was kicked out for that reason. And I think it had to do with him making a big public deal about how Cast Members were treated behind the scenes.

I could be wrong though.

Oh, and yeah, you could make a fortune giving Spirited Tours.

 

Originally Posted By Bolna

I remember reading about the Jim Hill tour incident, but really had no memory about any details. So, being curious I asked Google and came up with this article: <a href="http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20050325-1550-bloggerv.mouse.html" target="_blank">http://legacy.signonsandiego.c...use.html</a>

Here he says that he had done tours regularly in the previous years for $25 per person.

A Disney spokesperson is quoted saying: "This is private property and he's not allowed to do that. It's just like we would not allow someone to come in and set up a T-shirt shop,"

I guess they knew that Spirit would come up with an idea for a t-shirt shop on Main Street at some point in the future...

And this is Jim Hill's account of what happened: <a href="http://jimhillmedia.com/editor_in_chief1/b/jim_hill/archive/2005/03/21/566.aspx" target="_blank">http://jimhillmedia.com/editor...566.aspx</a>

 

Originally Posted By MousDad

So was it the juicy stories or the tour or both? I guess we will find out if Lou stays in business or not.

 

Originally Posted By SeventyOne

<I don't know anything about 'tour Guide Mike' (unlike Lou, I have never even heard of him but again) and nothing against him or your friend, but I believe Disney needs to shut them all down. It's patently absurd (and angers me to no end as a stockholder) that they let these people fly under the radar and compete with their own product and tell tales of who knows what?>

No offense taken, I've been shocked this goes on since I first heard about it. The thing is, TGM is one of the top sponsors on the pixie-dust infused board, and he's got his own cult of followers within the fanboi community. They jump on an negative post like Scientologists. And has been mentioned, he's a former CM who has become a multimillionaire selling info re: WDW (mostly online, but also with his tour company).

Not saying the fact this goes on justifies anyone else giving tours--just saying I find it hard to believe he's still off WDW's radar.

 

Originally Posted By MousDad

Good points, Seventy One. Needless to say, if the Mouse decides to look under the rug, they better be prepared for the scope of the infestation.

BTW: TGM is at an advantage over Hill, because I think he keeps a low profile in the parks, has a good "wink-wink" relationship with FLCMs, and, like you said, would absolutely, in a million years, never EVER say anything bad about the Mouse.

 

Originally Posted By DDMAN26

<<As for the X-tinct Attractions on DVD crowd, it depends on whether they are worth going after or not. Anybody can, indeed, reproduce their own videos, for their own use, which may or may not include selling those copies to other folks. Just don;'t include any copyrighted material! And be darn sure you personally own that video, or have the express permission of the documented owner before you start reproducing DVDs and offering them on your website.

Images work pretty much the same way. You should be able to sell your own photo-- but if you ask a lawyer, and that lawyer represents the Happiest Place on Earth, they may convince you it's illegal.>>

There was a podcast I ran across a few weeks ago where it was just audio of the rides and attractions. Does that run into any legal issues?

As for Lou Mongello's podcast. I actually really liked it early on, especially when he would have a guy named Jeff Pepper on. They would focus on an attraction or hotel in detail. I liked the history aspect of it. But then Jeff was gone and those segments pretty much disappeared. It's a well produced show but it was taking off my rotation.

For a Disney podcast I like, I listen to WedWay Radio, it's two brothers and they again focus on the historical aspects of the park.

As for Jeff Pepper I do enjoy his blog 2719 Hyperion quite a bit.

 

Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer

Ironic that Lou is a lawyer... I guess he found a loophole or sat down with Disney's own team to work this out? Honestly, it's the only way I see this happening.

 

Originally Posted By Lee hisownself

For what it's worth, as I recall...
Jim Hill was stopped from doing his tours because Disney said that they didnt like what he was saying, and that he was undercutting their own ability to sell tours.

The only reason Jim got caught was because some guests somehow fell in with his group, thinking it was an official tour. They complained to City Hall who then shut Jim down.

I don't see any way Lou can get away with it. Especially with the publicity it's getting here and elsewhere.

 

Originally Posted By Lee hisownself

Here is that whole story:
<a href="http://jimhillmedia.com/editor_in_chief1/b/jim_hill/archive/2005/03/21/566.aspx" target="_blank">http://jimhillmedia.com/editor...566.aspx</a>

 

Originally Posted By Spirit of 74

Unfortunately (or the other), my day is quite busy and my night will be too (albeit that will be Disney-related as I'll be seeing Captain Jack's latest adventures).

But I REALLY want to say so much and continue this discussion.

I vividly recall reading Jim 'Witness Protection' Hill's account on his tour's end in 2005. I didn't recall him actually charging for it, but I always assumed he did.

Otherwise, anything can be a tour. When I was hanging out at EPCOT last week with four friends telling Disney tales, that could be a tour except (sit down for this one ... ) shockingly enough, I don't actually charge friends for spending time with me (I know what you're thinking, what a truly kind/belevolent Spirit I am ... of good heart and generous disposition).

You just can't have people doing this.

I hope that point is driven home here.

How many fanbois would love to get in on this hot action? How many would love to stand in front of PoC and pontificate on why this was added to WDW and when and under what circumstances and then blather on about the infamous WRE? How about a history of Walt's old CoP? Or talk about the MK tunnels and the secrets they hold?

You do realize that clearly Disney can't/won't allow everyone to do this. But that's the can of worms they are allowing by letting the Lou's and the Mike's and whoever else(s) that are conducting these tours to continue to profiteer off the Mouse.

These ain't no Mouseketeers. More like Buckaneers!

I don't begrudge people making money fairly. I don't begrudge people being entrepreneurial. But this is just a sick bastardization of it ... it's theft with some? many? TDO/WDW employees choosing to just 'let it slide' ... one wonders are they getting kickbacks? A percentage of the profits in exchange for hotel stays and meal vouchers and tickets for family members?

Disney has a big problem on its hands here. And while I'm sure some of the followers of these online whores have been reporting back that 'Spirit's at it again' or 'Spirit is really pissed and talking to people in Burbank' etc., what I find astounding is that these people ever thought what they were doing was less than stealing.

These are probably the sanctominious morons who pass judgement on reusing refillable mugs as they make ridiculous amounts of money off of Disney by stealing Disney's business from Disney and on Disney's property with folks like my good friend Thomas Smith (how much do you think he hates me right now ... or is he deep enough to realize he and his department have made a HUGE mistake that needs correcting and begging forgiveness in Burbank?) simply letting it all go. Sharing the MAGIC if you will.

Wanna know what's most shocking? What's most surprising?

While apparently these thieves' activities may be well know amongst the fanboi community, they haven't been among Burbank's leadership (what's that Bowie song ... Chhaaanges) and I got a little inkling that it the gravy train just derailed.

If not, look for the Spirit's new tours starting late this summer: WDW execs and the Fanbois who drool over them! ;-)